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tranny whine

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mark59

Posts: 46

Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:40 pm

Post Tue May 15, 2012 7:27 pm

tranny whine

even'n folks, i've got a 1000 miles on my UL, it has a noisy whine in 1st thru 3rd....seems to have increased in loudness the past few days, i used an andrews drive gear and an OEM counter gear, i'm assuming that the whine is from the drive gears since it is totally silent in fourth. so would this be a loose fit between drive gears or is there another reason that the lower gears whine and drive/4th is quiet? tranny is all new parts including counter bushing and main drive race (with newly fitted bearings @ 0.008 thou.). also i'm new to tank shift and have the most difficulty down shifting to second, any ideas would be helpful. i have other 4 speeds and have rebuilt many of these over the years, i inspected the shifter drum and it appears to be in good shape....do have a rivera pro clutch and it may need shimmed or tweaked a bit but downshifting to 2nd takes perfect rpms to road speed for a clean shift... what am i not seeing. i am prepared to pull the tranny and check/change any loose fitting gears and maybe try an andrews 2nd. any thoughts on the andrews 2nd gear? better shifting or about the same as stock gear. all ratios are fx era. thanks mark andrews
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mark59

Posts: 46

Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:40 pm

Post Tue May 15, 2012 7:55 pm

Re: tranny whine

small correction the 8 thou should read 0.0008"
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RUBONE

Posts: 379

Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:24 pm

Post Tue May 15, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: tranny whine

small correction the 8 thou should read 0.0008"

Only if you are trying to say 8 ten-thousandths, otherwise it was fine!
The tranny will never whine in high gear simply because at that ratio everything is turning the same speed! A whine in lower gears means there is a lash issue somewhere. The mismatched parts are likely the issue, with some gear being incorrect in terms of mesh. There is no reason for a tank shift to be any different than a foot shift. If your linkage is correctly adjusted to where it engages every gear when just shifting through it should do the same at speed. A clutch adjustment issue is most likely the problem.
Robbie
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4471

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Wed May 16, 2012 10:15 am

Re: tranny whine

Poorly manufactured roller bearings [ junk tiawan/china ] will whine also. They wear very quickly and soon break apart.
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mark59

Posts: 46

Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:40 pm

Post Wed May 16, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: tranny whine

the bearings are 100 packs that i thought were eastern, but went out to the shop and looked at the packaging and i recognize the lettering and yellow label, but there is no name. now if i had a bearing issue i would expect something to occur in drive/4th as well. the race was from jims. i just went thru my shovel trans after a decade of 50k hard miles and used dennis kirk bearings, now Pa you have me worried now about those bearings, anyone know if they are quality or not?
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Dusty-Dave

Posts: 846

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 1999 12:01 am

Location: Ojo Caliente,NM,USA

Post Wed May 16, 2012 9:05 pm

Re: tranny whine

A gear whine that comes on quickly and gets worse quickly and doesn't talk in high is usually a countershaft bearing self destructing in a big way.
Dusty
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mark59

Posts: 46

Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:40 pm

Post Thu May 17, 2012 7:33 pm

Re: tranny whine

well folks, after your helpful posts i decided to poke a magnet in my tranny oil fill hole.....not good! looked like a metallic afro. drained the fluid and a few chunks of steel dropped out, i just pulled the lid and the countershaft bearings are gone. i can't believe what i'm seeing...........i came in from the shop washed my hands and posted this ....i want to thank you all for your insight and help....i'm headed back out for a late night in the shop. i'll give ya all gory details when i get er laid open...........well it's may and not mid summer......more money, i love these old bikes, otherwise i'd be insane....mark andrews
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mark59

Posts: 46

Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:40 pm

Post Thu May 17, 2012 9:01 pm

Re: tranny whine

well folks i got the tranny apart. when i took the lid off i reached in and felt how sloppy loose the the countergear was and thought ok the bearings are gone, but when i pulled the shaft all the bearings were there and yes 22 on each side and in good shape for what they went through. now the AP-E andrews countershaft had a channel gouged about 180 degrees around and .085" deep. this was on the drive gear side. the inner bearing thrust washer that rests up against the snap ring inside the gear bore was in 2 pieces but in place, the steel pieces i found early on were pieces of the other thrust washer that rests against the case bushing. countergear was set up with .012 end play and i checked again that i used the early case bushing and not the larger diameter bushings for caged needles. found about 50% of that thrust in varying sizes and the rest as metal pulp.......any thoughts how and why? bearing spec out as standard size. all parts were new andrews and NOS harley. as a side note i'll bet 2nd gear will downshift much better after all is repaired....dam i can't believe this mess didn't just explode the case and give me a thrill at speed......when i as young i beat the snot out of my bikes and blew a few trannys to kingdom come. don't seem fair i'm older now and was so kind to this gearbox.....mark
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bobul

Posts: 38

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 12:01 am

Location: Finland

Post Thu May 17, 2012 10:41 pm

Re: tranny whine

Over long needles?
No endplay inside countershaft gear?
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mark59

Posts: 46

Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:40 pm

Post Fri May 18, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: tranny whine

even'n folks, on my way home from work i stopped by bandit clutch and they did a rockwell test on my countershaft......12c...........guess that tells the story
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4471

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Fri May 18, 2012 7:50 pm

Re: tranny whine

Seems to me that definately tells the story.
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mark59

Posts: 46

Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:40 pm

Post Sat May 19, 2012 6:22 am

Re: tranny whine

morn'n folks, here's a pic. spoke with andrews products tech and they want to do their own testing, which i understand, but it seems from our conversation that they will be unwilling to help with any parts for repairing the damage done, all gear teeth have damage from the end thrust washer being chewed up and the miss-meshing of gear teeth not to mention all the debris that went thru everything...bearings, bushings, etc......... . i know this is a public forum and care must be taken in what we post publicly, but i'm wondering what my expectations should be with andrews products for damage to a tranny with 1400 miles, all new parts ruined? keep in mind this is one tech and may not represent the company's policy, i think andrews products has a good reputation for a quality line of products and for 35 yrs i have have used cams and gears from this company with flawless service and good wear durability. to have a one part be missed in QC is understandable.
Attachments
andrews c shaft.jpg
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4471

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Sat May 19, 2012 8:34 pm

Re: tranny whine

I cannot speak for the manufacturer but if I was the manufacturer of the failed component, I would warrant the part I manufactured only. If my customer used all of my components in the rebuilding of his unit, and he used one of my reputable licensed mechanics to rebuild the unit, I would cover repairs of the complete unit. Aside from that, I have no other way of knowing [ outside of my own recommended licensed mechanic ] what specs and tolerances were actually used when the unit was rebuilt. That is just my take on the situation you may or may not face.
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Kurt

User avatar

Posts: 421

Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:01 am

Location: Tucson Arizona

Post Sat May 19, 2012 9:14 pm

Re: tranny whine

This is not an uncommon problem as of late. I mean it's not running ramped, but I've seen this several times over the last decade.

The issue lies in the hands of the company doing the hardening of the shaft. Their QA seemed to fail the final inspection in this case.

I've seen crank pins Rockwell tested correctly on one side and nothing on the other because the pin was exposed on one side during the hardening process. I thought I had a pix of a crank pin that was run this way, but can't find it at the moment.

Anyway, it just goes to show that even if it's a top notch company making parts............shit happens....... :shock: :lol:

Kurt
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mark59

Posts: 46

Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:40 pm

Post Mon May 21, 2012 5:48 pm

Re: tranny whine

even'n folks, i have been trying to locate a gear set to rebuild the flathead transmission. most vendors do not stock the 4 speed items, anyone know where/who i can find a set ready to ship?.................revtech is an option i am considering, any thoughts, i'm looking for andrews as well.......mark
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mark59

Posts: 46

Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:40 pm

Post Fri May 25, 2012 10:28 pm

Re: tranny whine

even'n folks, i got the tranny back together tonight, put on about ten miles. bike does shift better, 4th is a bit tight though, as i shift into 4th i get a bit of resistance then a full engagement.... my first time into fourth it disengaged and being night time i didn't know if i had a belt or chain go at first.... rolled a bit and went down to 3rd, all was well. as i shifted through the gears 4th needed a positive shift and push to get the drum into full detent, readjusted the shift linkage giving fourth more room in the gate. once i get full engagement in fourth it stays put. rolled on and off the throttle, loading and unloading the gear and it holds just fine. i tried more tension on the drum detent ball and spring this time, this may be causing the drum to roll harder, i backed off the adjustment and will try it out tomorrow. it's midnight here and need to quiet down and wait for another day, any thoughts on setting up the tank shift would be welcomed, enjoy the holiday............mark andrews
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mark59

Posts: 46

Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:40 pm

Post Wed May 30, 2012 8:39 pm

Re: tranny whine

took the flathead for a 4 state ride, spent the night in west virginia at a friends cabin. fourth still needs a shove and hold till it engages, once engaged it stays put. i used a revtech gear set with an andrews mainshaft. the revtech gear set specs out to oem harley, the drive gear slots for the shifter clutch are narrow compared to an andrews gear. i used an oem pre 65 drive gear to compare to the revtech. all the gears were oem spec wise, i.e. machining,drive slots, etc..... . it seems like the shifter clutch for 3rd/4 th floats til it can line up and engage in drive, 3rd shifts fine. i have put a little over 5 hundred miles on since the rebuild, 1st thru 3rd shift very nicely...up and down and 4th/drive is improving as well. come winter i'll change 4th out to andrews with shifter clutch as well.................any thoughts on why 4th is acting this way?
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4471

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Wed May 30, 2012 10:13 pm

Re: tranny whine

How much sideplay do you have in the shifter drum on the shaft as it sits installed ? Shifter drum endplay may be at fault. Also...check out the shifter drum guide path width. It should only be a thousanth or 2 wider than the rollers or studs which drive the paths. Just another thought of what may be causing the issue.
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mark59

Posts: 46

Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:40 pm

Post Thu May 31, 2012 1:05 pm

Re: tranny whine

Pa, shimmed the drum to bring it into spec.....forget what is called for but i shot for about midpolnt on tighter side (several thou), i rotated the drum and checked endplay carefully. per the drum i have had the cast type wear badly and replaced them with the hardened steel type which is what i'm running, i paid close attention to slot wear/width.....replaced the lid bushing with one made at the shop where i work....best lubricated brass we had.... shifter bushing were checked, shaft polished and always new rollers installed.............i do think it's a tight fit between the shifter clutch and drive gear, it does seem to be engaging better as the miles rack up.....thanks for your thoughts .........mark
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4471

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Thu May 31, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: tranny whine

Maybe it just needs to lap itself in.
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