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KHK vin number raising

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Beachdog

Posts: 765

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Location: CA USA

Post Mon Jul 01, 2002 1:32 am

SirL,
If those #s that Panic posted are from your KHK case they were not put there by the Harley Davidson factory. Harley did not leave space between the letters or numbers that would allow the insertion of an additional digit. Harley strung the letters/numbers out evenly so that they covered the whole number boss to thwart theives and tatoo artists. The numbers pictured were put on that boss by a novice who did not have knowledge of the factory standards. It may not be stolen, but the numbers are not factory numbers. 'dog
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Cotten

User avatar

Posts: 2674

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 1999 12:01 am

Location: Central Illinois, USA

Post Mon Jul 01, 2002 2:48 am

Evewn though that's obviously an 8, the gap is a real problem.

If you restamp anything yourself, you become a felon. period.

The roundback versus straightback situation is well outlined in Palmer's "How to..."
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HOOTER

Posts: 1319

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 1:01 am

Location: State College, Pa.

Post Mon Jul 01, 2002 5:47 am

Looking at my legit 63 pan case. Serial numbers 63FLH.... has a sloped top 6 as opposed to the round top or the straight back....but the belly number has round top sixes in it.

[This message has been edited by HOOTER (edited 01 July 2002).]
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martinbros

Posts: 300

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Roselle, Missouri, USA

Post Mon Jul 01, 2002 1:13 pm

Sixes . . . Nineses . . . Did I get something backwards again? ( Must have been sober )

I am certain Hog used different stamps for the two numbers so there would be no mix up as to which is which. I got my info long time ago from a friendly CHP inspector that told me once why they could just come in, look at a ride and decide to confiscate it for bad numbers. Now it seems they were simply wrong. Wonder how much sweat and blood has been pulled from our collective pockets over the years?

Ride Safe :: TMBros>>>
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panic

Post Mon Jul 01, 2002 1:38 pm

Does that mean that the 54G and 59XL stamps are also bad? The quality of the impression looks genny to me, and I've seen other weird spacing before. The 50EL does look a bit iffy as to the boss itself - looks ground down.

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HOOTER

Posts: 1319

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 1:01 am

Location: State College, Pa.

Post Mon Jul 01, 2002 6:18 pm

Let's see here. If you restamp something, which makes you a felon and removing numbers makes you a felon. I wonder if proving that the 8 is an 8 and correcting the 8 is a bad thing.

Panic

Just the top and bottom # pics look fuzzy. LOL

They hand stamped the #'s on cases. Maybe after they were installed in the frame? Even if it were before installation,it would be pretty hard getting the numbers to line up. Could have been Monday morning or Friday afternoon. I'm sure we had some booze hounds back then too.

SirLose
The KHK pic. Try using a magnifing glass while shining a light on it from different angles. Might be able to see it's shadows.

HOOT
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Beachdog

Posts: 765

Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 12:01 am

Location: CA USA

Post Mon Jul 01, 2002 6:48 pm

Panic,
A friend in law enforcement who does vehicle theft work shared the cop bible on H-D with me. The info comes from H-D to the cops. They state that they never left space between any digit that would allow the insertion of another digit. When a vehicle theft investigator examines the numbers he/she will be using that info. They also include extensive info on how to spot texture jobs and TIG jobs. According to that info the "G" & "XLCH" numbers were stamped by someone other than the H-D factory. 'dog
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SirLosealot

Posts: 80

Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2002 1:01 am

Location: Pensacola, FL, USA

Post Mon Jul 01, 2002 7:44 pm

I tried the magnifying glass and different light tricks. Odd thing is, under naked eye it could be a six, under mag and bright light it looks like an eight. Took the enlarged pics and panics samples to the DMV this morning and the junior examiner agrees its an eight. Boss examiner not in until tommorow. Junior says they can issue a new VIN # and tag plate if Boss agrees it's an eight. Stay posted.
SirLose
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panic

Post Tue Jul 02, 2002 7:04 pm

I would say the exact opposite - that the original 54G stamp is proof that the "no space" rules has exceptions. A number placed in between would run off the boss due to the center stud cut-out.

I've read a few of those "official guides", and ALL of them were wrong.

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panic

Post Tue Jul 02, 2002 7:10 pm

Some decades ago, a friend was having a problem with the local DMV. He tried to register a Plymouth Road Runner, had the title, etc. Their computer spit it out, and they told him to come back with "something better". I went with him the next time, but when they spoke to us we were locked in a room with a man in uniform & firearm (oh, no - the car police!). It seems that their computer's "official data" was from the NATB (federal, Dept. of Justice based) info as to what the numbers look like, what they mean, where located. The NATB guide said specifically that a particular motor option was not built in the year of the title in question - therefore the VIN doesn't exist, therefore the car is stolen, therefore you're under arrest and we're confiscating the car.

Thn I produced a real, official Chrysler service manual for the car, showing the motor, codes, stamps, etc.
They gave up.
They still use the same guide.
It's still wrong.

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SirLosealot

Posts: 80

Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2002 1:01 am

Location: Pensacola, FL, USA

Post Tue Jul 02, 2002 7:34 pm

Bummer, the Boss DMV guy said no. However still got some options left.
Anybody know if Arizona does inspections when they register an out of state bike?
SirLose
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panic

Post Tue Jul 02, 2002 11:51 pm

Yah, heard another one today. Guy has a knucklehead, gets stopped, cops have a book that shows production volume for that year as 350, his VIN is 45F1464 (sample, didn't get the exact number)- yes, they confiscated the bike. He told them the numbers begin with 1001, LIKE IT SAYS IN THEIR BOOK, but they don't care.
Now he needs a liar, um, lawyer, to get his scoot back.

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Beachdog

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Location: CA USA

Post Wed Jul 03, 2002 12:04 am

Panic,
I agree, many "absolutes" in the guide ARE wrong, but that does not alter the fact that the theft investigators use these things as the BIBLE. Next step, the hook, short trip to the impound yard and then a lengthy fight to get your scoot back, if you can out lawyer them. 'dog
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HOOTER

Posts: 1319

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 1:01 am

Location: State College, Pa.

Post Wed Jul 03, 2002 4:37 am

A few years back a friend of mine in Fla bought a 67 from a friend of mine here in Pa. The Fla friend wanted it titled, registered in Fla so as to ride it to Fla from Pa. When we got it ready for him, he sent paper work up, which required a cop to read the numbers to verify them. Of course this was an out of state title (Pa) going to Fla.

My Rat bike had a mucked up Washington state Home Built # plate that wouldn't take a tracing. I took it down to my local tag service and had them verify it by one of they're lackys. No problem.

Is it already a Fla title? If it is it might be best to either title it to another state or send it back to the previous owner.

I've always felt that when building a bike from scratch or whole, the paper work is always the priority. Before even turning even one nut on the thing.

HOOT
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Dusty-Dave

Posts: 876

Joined: Tue Oct 12, 1999 12:01 am

Location: Ojo Caliente,NM,USA

Post Wed Jul 03, 2002 5:39 am

I have owned several early Sportys that had the same space between the leters and numbers. I belive that none were altered.
Dusty
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Cotten

User avatar

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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 1999 12:01 am

Location: Central Illinois, USA

Post Wed Jul 03, 2002 1:30 pm

Here in Illinois, the authorities use Palmer as a reference!

And since I have written affidavits of authenticity,...I am also a reference.

My titlebond appraisals often serve for the inspection step.

Illinois will not hold a suspicious machine for more than 30 days if no charges are filed. Our state ABATE can be thanked for that edict.

Your best means of dealing with the authorities may well be through a licensed dealer of good reputation, rather than an expensive lawyer.

The Man wants to nab perpetrators, not victims.
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JIm

Posts: 801

Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Planet Earth

Post Thu Jul 04, 2002 12:00 am

As said in other postings, the authorities use the information about numbers that has been supplied to them by HD. I had the pleasure of this a few years back. While crusin local RT 128 in Mass. I was stopped by a State Trooper who asked for my papers. While sitting there for over 20 min. a second Trooper pulled up and came over to the bike with a clip board loaded with papers. He looked at the numbers and then checked the corisponding paper on his clip board. He told the other Trooper everything was OK. I asked about the papers and ws told that they were from HD and had all the number configurations that they had used.
Now as far as HD's info they claim a lot of things that are not true. A friend of mine was looking into buying a new FX back in the 70's. While we were at the local HD dealer I noticed that one of the new FLH's had a set of numbers that had a line stamped through them and a second set of numbers stamped beside them. When I asked about it I was told that it was a factory mistake and they would supply paper work to anyone that bought the bike to back it up. Wouldn't touch that with the old 10' pole. So if that is true I would not put to much stock in what HD says about spaces or a lot of other things. I have seen many bikes over the years with spaces. Some deffinatly punched and others that I would say were 100% factory. Take Panics comment about the cut out in the boss for the case nut into cocidiration.

SirL

I would get the correct 8 and smack it in or find a dealer in your area that can do it. The dealer might be hard if you are not buying a new alphabet bike, all new leathers and a ton of chrome do dad for it.

Jim
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SirLosealot

Posts: 80

Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2002 1:01 am

Location: Pensacola, FL, USA

Post Thu Jul 04, 2002 2:12 pm

Just to continue the story........
NICB turned up at the house yesterday with 2 escambia county sherriffs....ho hum. Florida DMV sicc'd em on me before giving me the chance to get the inspection paperwork from Arizona.
The investigator looked at the scoot and said the last number was to badly damaged to lift.
He then said because it was so damaged he was unwilling to put his name on the OK.
He looked at the case matching numbers and said one number looked like it was false. He looked at the frame number and determined the frame was a 52 frame.
Got into a huddle with the sherriffs and said he had to go to HD to check some info (which worries me more than anything else). Sherriffs told me to put the bike in the garage, not move it, sell it, burn it or otherwise under penalty of death and that they would contact me ASAP.

I showed the investigator this thread and the pictures posted here and he absorbed the information well.

In all not a bad experience. He understands I may be a victim here, but he made it very clear he could have taken the bike as it sat. My take is that he will not be able to match the case numbers with the VIN #'s at HD so the Arozona compliance document, i'm receiving on friday, is going to be the key.

As to the number spacing/type issue. I'm convinced Harley did not use straight back 6/9's or the normal spacing config on the K models. Ebay currently has great pics on 2 left hand K cases that support the numbers on my scoot. (Item # 1840221352 if you want to check em out).

I'll keep ya posted.
SirLose
Mike

[This message has been edited by SirLosealot (edited 04 July 2002).]
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panic

Post Thu Jul 04, 2002 3:09 pm

They can't ask H-D for data - factory fire in 1960 destroyed all prior records.

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Click here to read about my Mikuni Book
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