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Oil migrating into the crankcase

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flathead1943

Posts: 53

Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:22 pm

Post Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:49 pm

Oil migrating into the crankcase

Been wondering about this for as long as i own my 45. If my bike sits for long period of time ( winter) oil migrate into the crankcase and when i kick it over or start the bike oil comes out of the breather under the engine. Not only its messy but not verry friendly either. I have rebuilt my oil pump replaced all springs and balls in it . Normal for 45 ??? Maybe its only me ( wouldn't surprise me hahahah) Frank
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Tim 435

Posts: 741

Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:01 am

Location: Pa. , USA

Post Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:22 pm

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

New balls and springs won't fix it if the ball seats are out of wack, The easiest way to fix it is to drain the oil for winter storage OR try having the ball seats in the pump re-burnished, there was a burnishing tool available from somebody on this board or you may be able to fabricate one, good luck, Tim
Vintage roadracing, Class C, AHRMA # 335
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flathead1943

Posts: 53

Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:22 pm

Post Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:26 pm

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

I should add that it doesn't have to sit all winter. 2-3 weeks or so , you can hear the oil through the breather just smokes a little more on start up and clears 10 20 sec
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44dwarf

Posts: 318

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:22 pm

Location: north central Ma.

Post Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:50 pm

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

My K does it too so when i know i'm going to park it for over a week i pull the chank drain plug and slide the oil pan under it. Put the plug in a plastic cup on the seat so you don't forget it.
before the next ride put the plug in and pour the oil back in the tank or just fill with new oil.

44
"Smok'in the competition NOT Tobacco"
"Transplant organs, Don't bury them!"
Why dwarf? 5/8 scale race cars! http://www.dwarfcarracing.com
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Keith

Posts: 186

Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:25 pm

Post Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:32 pm

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

Whats involved in making a burnishing tool ?

Would that be something like a 3/8" ball welded to the end of a small diameter rod, and then inserted into the pump orifice, and then reciprocated back and forth with a bit of valve grinding paste. Would that restore a seat properly.
or
Would it be a tool that actually cuts the seat perpendicular and central to the orifice.
Thanks Keith
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4650

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:29 am

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

Keith....Member "Cotten" has made up a very useful burnishing tool. Member "Steve" has had several of his types produced as well.

See "Cotten" viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9348&p=71203&hilit=burnishing+tool#p71203

See "Steve" viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9348&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=burnishing+tool&start=40
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wilko

Posts: 159

Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:36 pm

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:52 pm

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

Of course there will be some who claim their bikes don't wetsump, BUT I DON'T BELEIVE THEM!
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Cotten

User avatar

Posts: 2667

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 1999 12:01 am

Location: Central Illinois, USA

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:14 pm

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

Folks,

A third generation of burnishers is under production,
hopefully to remedy the problems produced under advice from the engineer enlisted for the second batch.

An old-and-not-improved production is on the bench!
Your patience is greatly appreciated...

....Cotten
liberty@npoint.net
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Tim 435

Posts: 741

Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:01 am

Location: Pa. , USA

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

Great ! whats wrong with the second batch ? (which is probably the one i have) .
Vintage roadracing, Class C, AHRMA # 335
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Cotten

User avatar

Posts: 2667

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 1999 12:01 am

Location: Central Illinois, USA

Post Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:38 am

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

wilko wrote:Of course there will be some who claim their bikes don't wetsump, BUT I DON'T BELEIVE THEM!

Wilko!

I didn't believe it either, until I saw it with my own eyes: A machine that can sit all winter and still have four quarts in the oiltank.
Even stranger was an original paint Knuck that came in last month; It had never been burnished, yet did not fill the cases after months of sitting.

And Tim!

A couple of folks have managed to get the balls to come off, which of course I will replace.

I let myself get talked into a shortcut, which allowed the balls to be silversoldered with less heat, thus preserving their hardness, and to be less expensive.
The next batch, now in progress, shall have to approximately $50 each.

The labor intensive aspect is to re-micro-polish the ball, as it is it's finish that smooths the seat finer than an oil molecule.

Unfortunately, many seats have been abused by punching, lapping, and cutters.
To restore a damaged seat prior to finish burnishing, I have used a simple piloted conical stone.
BURNISHR.jpg


....Cotten
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Cotten

User avatar

Posts: 2667

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 1999 12:01 am

Location: Central Illinois, USA

Post Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:15 am

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

Folks,

I finally completed another small batch that pleases me.

Those of you who are interested should email me direct at liberty@npoint.net.

Thanks for this valuable forum!

....Cotten
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celticdodge

Posts: 139

Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:29 am

Location: USA

Post Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:02 pm

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

Well here's another unorthodox solution to the leaking check valve ball that leaks.Glad to here there is a way to repair these pumps. :D :D

http://s1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd4 ... G_3958.jpg
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45Brit

Posts: 1399

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:40 am

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

It was, at one time, a common practice for owners of British bikes to fit a tap ( faucet ) in the oil feed line for this reason. I can't recommend this, least of all for racing machines.... :roll:
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
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Kev UK

Posts: 168

Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:46 pm

Location: Carmarthen, Wales, UK

Post Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:34 pm

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

45Brit wrote:It was, at one time, a common practice for owners of British bikes to fit a tap ( faucet ) in the oil feed line for this reason. I can't recommend this, least of all for racing machines.... :roll:


A previous owner of my WLC must've heard about this bright idea. Unfortunately he didn't quite get it right....



..... the tap is on the return line. DOH! :oops:

Job lined up for replacement with a new line this fall; that'll be one less oil leak! :D
72 Ironhead, goes better than it stops!

42(?)WLC

2005 XL1200R.... well ya gotta have a rat-bike!
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45Brit

Posts: 1399

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:14 am

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

Kev UK wrote:
45Brit wrote:It was, at one time, a common practice for owners of British bikes to fit a tap ( faucet ) in the oil feed line for this reason. I can't recommend this, least of all for racing machines.... :roll:


A previous owner of my WLC must've heard about this bright idea. Unfortunately he didn't quite get it right....



..... the tap is on the return line. DOH! :oops:

Job lined up for replacement with a new line this fall; that'll be one less oil leak! :D


I think bright idea is overstating the case rather :roll: although I did once own a 45 with a tap on the chain oiler, and my 45/Ariel project doesn't have this line fitted at all.

Another little gem you would sometimes find, was crimping the feed line to the rocker spindles on Enfield twins and to a lesser extent, Triumphs. The idea was to reduce top-end leaks by restricting the flow, which was mainly controlled by the pipe diameter and the clearances between the rocker assembly components. Enfields had this branch on the feed side and could leak hugely from the top end, often in conjunction with under-oiling of the lower end ... with predictable results, Constellations in particular were notorious for broken rods.
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
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fhsmith1

Posts: 200

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:10 pm

Location: Georgia

Post Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:15 pm

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

Guys
45 pump and UL pump is the same. It is my firm belief that at least some of the sumping is through the cam bushing. I bought a new cast iron pump that sumped. Burnished the seat as many ways as I could think of, still leaked. Then I bought 1 of those fancy Finland built pumps with the late Sporster pump gears. It still sumps after several weeks. There is nothing in the pump to prevent oil from going through the cam bushing.

F
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DaveAus

Posts: 6

Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 7:05 pm

Post Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:51 pm

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

So would it be cured if you replaced the Cam bushing?
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4650

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:04 pm

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

Not in my opinon. Oil needs to lubricate the bushing. Factory calls for need .0005" to .001" bushing to shaft clearance for overhaul fitment. The factory permits as much as .002" before suggesting they be changed. Yes..I said suggestion from the factory. It is a suggestion only because, and according to the factory, the cam gears will be extra noisy beyond .002" bushing to shaft clearance. Oil flow is controlled by the pump valves. It comes and goes from the oil tank through the soul control of those pump valves. If those pump valve are actually working correctly, the crankcase should be clear of any excess oil. Gravity feeds the feed pump.
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fhsmith1

Posts: 200

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:10 pm

Location: Georgia

Post Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:44 pm

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

Pa
It could be that my UL cam bushing is looser than specs. I didn't measure it when I built it but it doesn't make excess noise. Actually it's pretty quiet since I fixed the excess clearence in the generator gear. It did make too much noise before that.

Is it your opinion that oil can migrate from the oil tank into the gearcase through the cam bushing when the bike sits for several weeks?

F
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4650

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:50 pm

Re: Oil migrating into the crankcase

Yes and No is my opinion. Yes if the pump valves are not seating or the cam shaft clearance is well beyond the .002" noise suggestion by the factory. No if the pump valves are seating and the clearance on the cam shaft is at or below the .002" factory noise suggestion. If you removed the rear exhaust cam completely, leaving the case and cam cover bushings open and void of the rear exhaust cam shaft journals, the oil would flow like a river into the crankcase because the oil hits the oil pump drive and cam gear shaft before it reaches the pump valves. Oil needs room to flow and .002" or less clearance is not enough space for such a thick liquid to pass through unless it is pressurized to help push it through. One other consideration in this issue could be to much clearance in the feed pump vane holder and vanes to the feed pump body.
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