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Oil pumps

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woody

Posts: 493

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Wa, USA

Post Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:49 am

Re: Oil pumps

My actual test was run at 600 RPM (1200 engine RPM). Pump capacity is based on displacement, so in theory double RPM should equal double output. The only variables on this are restriction on either the output side (increased pressure) or the inlet side (pump cavitation). The sportster feed pump gears that I have are .185" thick and the flathead return pump gears are .312" thick. They appear to be the same otherwise (diameter, # of teeth, tooth form, etc.) If I am not assuming anything that is not true, the sporty feed gears should put out .32 gal per minute at 2400 engine RPM. If this is more than the stock flathead pump puts out, then they should provide adequate supply for a flathead without overloading the return pump. The purpose for all this is that I would like to make an center block to extend the flathead pump and use the sporty drive gear and feed gears to make a flathead pump that is similar to the sportster unit. There is enough room in the frame for this to clear, and I think that by modifying the flathead feed pump, the oil could be fed into it and use the stock check ball system.
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panic

Post Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:11 pm

Re: Oil pumps

In case you're using an earlier rotor, the 1972-76 rotor (26331-72) is similar (except for the much larger breather opening) but longer which gives more room for stacking and spacing gears. Regardless of thickness, OD or tooth count the gears are all the same ID (.422") so they fit any rotor as long as the drive method (key or roll pin) and retention (snap ring or split locks) is compatible.
However, they must match the pump body for gear OD and thickness.
Before you go looking through every coffee can - big twin OHV gear OD (.990") is larger than the early XL (.970") but smaller than the 45 and late XL (1.115").
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Frankenstein

User avatar

Posts: 1557

Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Post Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:24 pm

Re: Oil pumps

Woody, I used the original feed pump as a distribution block/ check valve on my sporty pump conversion this year and that worked o.k. Unfortunately, my supply body had been left outdoors for years and the check valve seat was on tough shape. But presently it does slow down the oil flow, and this winter I'll take another shot at getting the ball to seat.
Thanks for the gear info Panic, much appreciated.
Dr Dick
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JIm

Posts: 801

Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Planet Earth

Post Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:56 pm

Re: Oil pumps

Woody,

When I tested the stock oil feed pump, it was installed on a cam cover that was bolted to a right side case. A pinion shaft was installed to block off the bushing feed hole. I tested pressure and flow at 1,500 rpm (3,000 rpm motor) and 1,000 rpm (2,000 rpm motor) using a driver that I machined but only timed the higher rpm. The oil was heated before testing and it took over 3 minutes to pump 1/3 to 1/2 quart of oil. The pump cavitates to much with cold oil due to the oil not being able to flow into the rotor and or the inability of the vanes to push the cold oil. The pinion shaft was rotated a number of times during the tests to check flow but not at engine rpm. If the pinion shaft were to be rotated to correspond to the engine rpm, the time to pump the oil would go down. That is one of the tests I would like to try this winter, but not having extra cases and cam covers, I will either try to make a fixture or just tear the motor apart.
The flathead oil pump can be modified to supply a more than an adequate amount of oil to the motor, including motors with a skirt oiler installed and either increased or full time crank oiling. IMHO, a pump that greatly increases the volume of oil to the motor is not going to accomplish much. There is only so much oil that can supplied to the lower end through the pinion shaft and crank. The excess oil is going to enter the bypass circuit and go into the cam cover.

Jim
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woody

Posts: 493

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Wa, USA

Post Sat May 17, 2008 5:05 pm

Re: Oil pumps

I know it's been a while since this was started, but I am finally back on this project. I made a spacer block for a scavenger pump with pump cavities for .220" thick gears. I could not come up with any useable Sportster gears, so I cut down a set of flathead scavenge gears. I used a Sporty breather gear with a retainer groove that uses the split key retainers like a flathead and drilled it to use a pin gear drive for both sets of gears. The assembly does fit inside the rails of my Santee frame. I don't know about stock. The new feed pump puts out unrestricted flow of .358 GPM at 2400 engine RPM, so this is still much less than the return pump is capable of. (.55GPM) The next step is to modify a feed pump to recieve the oil and use the stock check ball system. I will attempt to post pictures as soon as I charge my camera batteries.
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Frankenstein

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Posts: 1557

Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Post Sun May 18, 2008 10:55 am

Re: Oil pumps

Hi Woody, Glad to hear you're making progress on your pump escapades. I like the sound of what you've done so far. Im attaching a couple of pics of how I modified the supply pump to be a distribution block. This way, you get the use of the check valve, and route oil to all the places the stock pump did.
Image
Image
It's just an aluminum collar to block the ports on the rotor chamber, and a plug to fill the feed hole to the chamber. Also the hole drilled from feed to output side of pump.
I'm sure you've seen it before, but here's a link to the website with all the info on my pump experiments.
http://www.freewebs.com/dicky_linn/thir ... typump.htm
I've just altered the pump on my 44U, which is the bike/engine in most of the pictures on the site. It now has the latest version of the sporty pump modifications. The side of the pump is cut off, new bottom plate, this time in aluminum. that way, there's no need for spacers under the motor mounts so the pump will clear the stock frame rails. Looks a little sleeker also. Interesting figures on pump output, The late sporty pump outputs 1 ltr/minute@ 2000 engine rpm, which appears to be less than your version, although your testing rpms were slightly higher. You're going to have plenty of oil for that motor now! I'm running full flow 3 hole crankpin, and skirt oilers, pressure drops to about 13 psi hot., 60 psi cold, but the sporty pump has NO bypass circuit, and I'm not using the one in the original supply pump. You may want to keep that circuit operational in the original supply body on yours. I've seen late model racing pumps that had the pressure relief valve built into the pump body, so HD thought it must have been a good idea, at least for racing. They never bothered on all the street sportys out there though.
Sounds like you're having fun with this, keep up the good work!
DD
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woody

Posts: 493

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Wa, USA

Post Sun May 18, 2008 3:53 pm

Re: Oil pumps

OK, I don't get the picture posting plan. Dr. Dick, you seem to have it figured out. Could you give me an assist, please?
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Frankenstein

User avatar

Posts: 1557

Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Post Sun May 18, 2008 7:28 pm

Re: Oil pumps

Hi Woody, The bottom line on posting pictures is that they must be on the web somewhere besides here. This site does not host pictures... Mine are at that site that hosts my free website with all the bike pics, http://www.freewebs.com. There are lots of places that will host pics free. Another I've used is the yahoo one, http://www.geocities.yahoo.com. Once you get the pictures on the web somewhere, it's easy to get them here. is all it takes. Put the web address of the picture right between the ][ brackets in the middle.
I know there are lots of other places that will host your pictures, you can find others who've used them right here, this is just my way.
DD
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john HD

User avatar

Posts: 303

Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:26 pm

Location: madison wisconsin usa

Post Mon May 19, 2008 3:35 pm

Re: Oil pumps

The bottom line on posting pictures is that they must be on the web somewhere besides here.


ahh not so my bolt necked friend, just look at the top of the page. hit gallery, upload your pictures there and then use the image tags you find at the top of the reply box. copy and paste the image url inbetween the [img]and[/img]

it should look like this [img]pastetheurlfromthegalleryhere[/img] no spaces allowed.

and work like this:

Image

john
<<

Frankenstein

User avatar

Posts: 1557

Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Post Mon May 19, 2008 4:12 pm

Re: Oil pumps

Bolt necked indeed!! Hey, you all knew I got the Abbe normal one in the first place, don't expect so much of me, like reading the whole page! I stand corrected.
:lol: :lol: DD
And by the way, what do the little pluckers have to do with motorcycles?? besides breakfast and dinner?
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panacea

Posts: 121

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:22 pm

Location: Mpls. area

Post Mon May 19, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Oil pumps

Over at Hydra-glide.net they've got pics of chiks on old scooters, but Johns are nice too!
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john HD

User avatar

Posts: 303

Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:26 pm

Location: madison wisconsin usa

Post Mon May 19, 2008 5:51 pm

Re: Oil pumps

just thought i would post some pics of hot chicks!

they are some photos i hosted here and used in this thread http://www.flatheadpower.com/tech/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9573

john
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john HD

User avatar

Posts: 303

Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:26 pm

Location: madison wisconsin usa

Post Mon May 19, 2008 5:54 pm

Re: Oil pumps

panacea wrote:Over at Hydra-glide.net they've got pics of chiks on old scooters, but Johns are nice too!


that would be this one http://www.hydra-glide.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3102

hubba hubba!


john
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woody

Posts: 493

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Wa, USA

Post Mon May 19, 2008 9:17 pm

Re: Oil pumps

Good info, John HD. Here is my attempt at following your advice.

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woody

Posts: 493

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Wa, USA

Post Mon May 19, 2008 9:19 pm

Re: Oil pumps

OK, I followed the instructions, I think. What went wrong?
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john HD

User avatar

Posts: 303

Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:26 pm

Location: madison wisconsin usa

Post Tue May 20, 2008 4:30 am

Re: Oil pumps

woody

it looks like they uploaded properly, try this: go to your gallery, click on an image to open it, after it opens right click on the image, when the pop up appears select properties, copy the url in the pop up by hilighting it and paste using the [img] code. looks like you are real close...

Image

john
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Frankenstein

User avatar

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Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Post Tue May 20, 2008 6:26 am

Re: Oil pumps

Woody, that's one hot lookin oil pump.. I like it alot. Are the new supply gears on top? Anyhow, Nice piece of work.
DD
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4730

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Tue May 20, 2008 12:16 pm

Re: Oil pumps

"And by the way, what do the little pluckers have to do with motorcycles?? besides breakfast and dinner?"

They got wings Doc. :lol: :wink: Pa
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woody

Posts: 493

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Wa, USA

Post Tue May 20, 2008 5:44 pm

Re: Oil pumps

The return gears are in the standard location and the feed gears are on the bottom side of the center block. Thanks for the help on how to post the pics, John HD. Dr. Dick, thanks for the complement.
Last edited by woody on Tue May 20, 2008 6:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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woody

Posts: 493

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Wa, USA

Post Tue May 20, 2008 5:51 pm

Re: Oil pumps

OK, I'll try again for the full size. Looks like I got the thumbnals. OOPS

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