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59 FL in Rigid V-Twin Frame, Exh., Volt. Reg. and Oil Filter

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Plumber

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Post Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:27 pm

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame (Exhaust pipes)

have you tried pulling out on the rear end of the squish pipe, allowing the front pipe to swing up to the bottom of the case, then swing the squish pipe back in engageing the front pipe, all the while you must bite the lower lip. Hey, it works! Mike

I'll try that too, thanks.
Last edited by Plumber on Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Plumber

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Post Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:35 pm

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

I'll loosen the heads so I can lift it up, and put a wooden tapered wedge between the head and cylinder and try to move the flat-pipe back, while still hooked on the lip of the hub. I'll need to grind some more off of the footboard lug first.
There's not as much height between the bottom of the motor and the frame rails on this 1997 V-Twin frame, as there is on my OEM knuckle frame and OEM knuckle motor.
Image
There needs to be as much slop as possible for the flat-pipe to move around, and for assembling the pipes as you suggest. I'll grind some clearance then try it out as described above.
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:idea: "After thinking about it for a bit, I believe cutting the notch with a hack saw will be the way to go, rather than a plasma torch. The main reason is because it is very difficult to cut a straight line unless you have a guide to run the plasma torch against.
With a hack saw you can draw out the cut with a grease pencil and then just follow that to make the cut." - Ryder
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What he's suggesting is, making a calculated single cut in the pipe that's almost 2/3rds through the pipe. I can bend the pipe then and close the kerf. If I need more kerf width, then I can grind more kerf (width) until I can clamshell-close the pipe enough to make the header spigot align with the flat-pipe hub. Then TiG weld the kerf closed and re-chrome the pipe. I'll get to that this weekend.
I repeated this all to Linda, the returns lady from V-Twin, and she was up to speed with me all the way, and even gave me a suggestion for fitment, plus total support for getting me a replacement "Y" pipe from the '48-57 kit for my customer. That's the "new" V-Twin we're getting these days.
Stett's doing the TiG work. I can't think of another problem piece on this Pan. The voltage regulator addition worked well. External oil filter is do-able. What else? Clutch hub taper problem? I'm not there yet, but it's next after the header and oil filter bracket.
Last edited by Plumber on Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Plumber

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Post Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:34 pm

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

There needs to be enough relief ground off the foot board frame lug, to allow the flat pipe's mid-seam to be able to tilt past 45-degrees, if necessary, when fitting the flat pipe to the front header. This 1/8" is plenty of room now. I can tilt the flat pipe until it touches the bottom frame rail, without it ever making contact with the foot board lug anymore.
Next job, is to cut a kerf line across a calculated spot, somewhere in the radius of the front header bend.
Image
Image
Last edited by Plumber on Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Chris Haynes

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Post Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:39 pm

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

[quote="Plumber"]Next job, is to cut a kerf line across a calculated spot, somewhere in the radius if the front header bendquote]


I still think it would be a lot easier to buy parts that actually fit.
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Plumber

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Post Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:42 pm

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

Oh yes, the fun days of old Harley restoration, when everything fit and the only challenge was to buy an old part clean it up, bang a dent out, paint it and install it.
99% of all the OEM Harley parts you find at swap meets or on ebay are bones that were actually, at one time or another, already on a motorcycle. All the fitment was done for you at the factory 53 or more years ago.
Replication
makes restoration seem like Revelle® (plastic) model kit building. I wouldn't suggest anyone build a kit. I've done okay, but if you're not a natural born builder, I don't think people can be influenced into building a replica. I will venture to say that replication will wind up being a * dinc (double income no children) sport and restricted to only people that have a minimum of 250 sq. ft. of garage space, where they can leave a project in undisturbed stages of assembly. Having another running motorcycle during the build is absolutely essential.
All of the V-Twin front headers need a little more arcing. I've thought that the (swing arm) front header needed an inch of pipe added to the spigot, and this was confirmed by PanPal over on HGN.
Replication is a lot of hassle, but the reward is overcoming the resistance of metal, making something conform and fit, and roll with brakes. You learn a lot about the "ass that bears you" in the process.

* Or dien (double-income empty nest).
Last edited by Plumber on Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chris Haynes

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Post Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:23 am

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

The Superior brand pipes that are sold by Dixie bolt right on. No filing, bending or reshaping. Dixie pipes are available through most any aftermarket shop. And retail for less than Tedd's wholesale.
I notice in Tedd's new 2008 catalogue he no longer tells you if the part is an import or domestic made item.
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MarkBranst

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Post Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:32 pm

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

Message retracted.
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Plumber

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Post Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:38 pm

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

The Superior brand pipes that are sold by Dixie bolt right on. No filing, bending or reshaping.

What about the flat-pipe? False rivet bracket or not :?: I have a set of n.o.s. (Knucklehead) Superior® level-upswept shot guns and 2-1/4" dia. KH barrel mufflers. The flat-piece that came with that set has the false rivet bracket.
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Chris Haynes

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Post Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:31 pm

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

Plumber wrote:
The Superior brand pipes that are sold by Dixie bolt right on. No filing, bending or reshaping.

What about the flat-pipe? False rivet bracket or not :?: I have a set of n.o.s. (Knucklehead) Superior® level-upswept shot guns and 2-1/4" dia. KH barrel mufflers. The flat-piece that came with that set has the false rivet bracket.



I have some NOS Genuine H-D "S" Pipes I found at Dixie a couple years ago. They need the ends trimmed as they are unfinished. $$$ and one will be yours. Anybody else want one they are $$. :mrgreen:
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Plumber

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Post Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:46 pm

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

http://nosparts.com/ has them too, parkered and chrome. Flat-pipes aren't something I need. I have my 4-pipes fit together now, but need to mark for cuts and maybe grind the ends of both pipes. Coming together though - can't ask for better than that.
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No pics yet, but with the pipes assembled, it binds for needed angle relief at the rear section of the (rear) head spigot and hub.
It also binds at the front header hub, for needed angle relief at the front section of the front spigot.
My crossroads is, do i make one (or two) 2/3rds-through-the-pipe-cuts to correct the angle of the pipe sections alignment :?:
Or, (the quick and dirty) do I grind an angle off the top of the hub bells and "adjust" the alignment angles of the pipe sections without slicing and TiGing the pipes.
The downside to grinding the hub-tops off to the needed angle of approach, is that the hub of the header will not allow the spigot of the head to meet square with the flange bottom of the header. There would be about a 1/32" gap that the clamp would squeeze shut, since the headers already have that 7/16" long slot :?:
Since I can make the rear header and 'Y" pipe align and provide room for the brake arm, we'll start there and make the front pipe fit later. This way we can limit the mods to just angling the top of the header hub and only have to cut-n-TiG the front header. I'll show you where it's out of whack at the top of the rear head:
Image
This all fits real nice, except at the top of the hub. But, with the header and "Y" pipe assembled, I can shake the flat-pipe around some. The flat-pipe is not bound by the frame rail or making contact with the bottom of the crankcase.....and...this...is...good.
ImageImage
I painted the slot pattern black for location. But, in the left pic, at the bottom, you can see air below the end of the spigot (because the headers at a slight tilt which also makes the gap greater). That's not good.
"TiG close and re-cut shallow slots with a hacksaw. Your repair work will be hidden by the clamp"- PanPal
Okay, I can do that. Or, I can grind the top off the hub until it doesn't make contact with the head's spigot base. (aka: quick and dirty, but still hidden by the clamp.)
Image
Good clearance, the arm only needs to rock about 30-degrees, but I'm installing the rear brake pedal for action, then grind on the rear header hub - Get it all fit and move on over to the front header and it's problems.
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I've got the muffler, "Y" and rear header pipe all together and hanging correctly. The muffler-to-"Y" pipe clamp is a contorted bend. Back when, I happen to order a s/s clamp set, so it's going to be some more fun trying to bend double, in line hole tangs to match the angle of the frame support, that the laminate-clamp is suppose to sit on and bolt through to.
I ground away a crescent shape area so the header would fit more custom-contoured to the rear section of the spigot. This is a view from under the head:
Image
It's starting to feel alive.
Image
I'm wondering if I need to "re-bend to suit" with this clamp. It looks like it's suppose to have a bolt through the second hole (furthest away) and fasten to the base frame support.
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In the process of adjusting the rear header, I lost some seating into the "Y" pipe but not that much. It feels like a secure fit into the hub. I may get some of that slack back when I tighten everything up.
Image
Last edited by Plumber on Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:19 pm, edited 22 times in total.
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Chris Haynes

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Post Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:10 pm

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

In case anybody wonders why Dixie has so many Superior products here is a like to your answer.
http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=211411&ppid=1122&image=26398257&images=26398257&formats=0&format=0
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Plumber

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Post Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:21 pm

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

I cut the front header and ground it to where about 20% of the ends make contact. Stett's going to TiG tack it tomorrow morning. It'll take two trips to his shop, but I think it's going to all fit together ok.
Image
You can see how much lower the spigot is than the hub, which begs the question - Could I make the spigot meet up with the hub by simply cutting 1/4" off the end? I would say no, because, as you can see the hub of the header is installed on the head's exhaust spigot. The radius of the curve needs to be changed. The only way to change that, imo, is to remove a 1/8" section in the middle of a bend. The pipe has a cut 2/3 of the way through it.
Image
The two halves after being cut.
Image
I picked the half that was the most un-even across the top and flat-ground that raw end with a 7" diameter grind wheel to make the end more even.
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The header doesn't sit squarely on the hub. So, when you see the pic of the ends matched below, I can still remove a little more material from one end of the header and it will move forward and change the position of the header hub to be more aligned on the head's exhaust spigot.
Image
Hand-filing some more off the leading edge of one of the pipe ends will allow the header to move forward a little but will help align the header hub with the head spigot.
I used a Sharpie pen and pocket ruler to make three series of marks. Stett will match the marks and tack it.
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1-10-08 Stett welded it in one pass. I made the three alignment lines at different places across the two halves. He tacked the pipe, and asked me approve the alignment relationship of my marks, then suggested I take it back to my shop and check the fit. His tacks we so right-on to my marks, that I asked him to finished the weld.
Even a gnat-hair of wrong angle would have affected the final fit.
The header fits, but lifts the head 1/32 of an inch. I'm going to flat-grind the top of the header hub slightly and it will all fit together with at least 0.030" of air space between the top of the flat-pipe and the crankcase and at least 0.030" of air space between the right down-tube and front header.
I wouldn't suggest anyone trying what we did, by not having the motorcycle at the same site as the TiG welder and winging it. It could have gone horribly wrong. Easier to pull tacks apart than a whole seam.
1-11-08 It all fits sweet :!: I can easily remove the four pipe sections. There is no bind between the pipes. Nothing is forced. It's like working on a two-wheeled art project now. Too bad the front header doesn't fit right out of the box. You might be able to just shorten the spigot end of the front header without cutting it in half, but I didn't take that route. It seemed to me that the arc of the header was not enough. I'll post a pic of our modified header over a swing-arm front header and we'll compare the arc bend and see if ours is now radically different from an off-the-shelf '48-65 V-Twin header (which is 1" shorter by design, but the arc was originally the same as the '48-57).
Here's the tools that made cutting, grinding and filing possible :
ImageImage
(Left) A Sanvik® saw works better (blade is supported at the pins) than a standard hacksaw. A Remington-Dupont, "Grit Edge" tungsten carbide blade cuts straight and leaves a 0.060" kerf (cut), which is wide enough for the relief slots in the hub. We cut four slots instead of two, so the hub will close on the spigot. The blade cuts fast, so mark the slot lines for 1/4" max. depth and cut with a blade 3/16 deep and finish the last 1/16" with a round file.
The 7" wheel removes a lot of material evenly. The 4" wheel I used for contouring the top of the hub edge, where necessary.
The file is a 2nd cut - Used it to draw file the top of the hub after the 7" wheel.
The fine tooth pin-file was used to remove the sharp edge off the hub's I.D and O.D.
(Right) The Foredom Grinder has been another tool that has helped with the build in several areas. It has 1/8 and 1/4" chucks. The stone wheel was used to remove weld from the I.D. of the hubs where the slots were filled. The Foredom will turn the sustained rpms you need to knock down TiG beads.
Welds were done by http://stettsironhorseranch.com/ where they pay attention to detail.
Image
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To keep the muffler assembly aligned at the motor area, I've temporarily installed this spacer between the clamp and frame.
Image
This front muffler clamp's position also pulls the entire rear assembly into alignment. It's this clamp's eventual position that will remove the need for the spacer I have at the rear muffler clamp now.
Image
The frame tab and pipe tab don't match up. The flat-pipe's tab will need to be removed and re-welded to whatever position your assembly requires. In my case, I'll need to put the clamp next to the hub and maybe hog the hole some to the left. Between the two tabs is a place that is shim-able if necessary. This frame and flat-pipe tab clamp controls the in and out of everything that might create metal contact (brake arm) or header hub-to-spigot stress. Imo, with everything dialed in, you should still be able to move the headers slightly before you tighten the exhaust clamps to the head.
Image
There is plenty of clearance between the front header and the cradle and between the top of the flat pipe and the crankcase. And the side seam of the flat pipe gets close to the motor groove, without binding into the crankcase. (Every crankcase needs the groove or one cut into it.
There is at least 1/64" of contact-gap between the top of the header hub and the heads. This is necessary to allow the pipes to turn slightly, and the entire assembly to settle in to position.
Image
This is the position of the trans. at slightly over mid-way back.ImageImage
This is moved all the way forward.
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Plumber

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Post Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:46 am

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

We're getting some help on the positioning of the front muffler clamp from Matt over the Wheels Through Time Museum. :D
http://www.wheelsthroughtime.com/index. ... e&Itemid=1
More fun and then some more fun on top of that.
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Chris Haynes

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Post Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:41 am

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

I still wonder why you just don't buy parts that fit instead of spending weeks trying to make Tedd's crap fit. Tom Faber has actual NOS Panhead head pipes. Unchromed but ready to plate and bolt on. Naw, that would be to easy. :mrgreen:
Keep punishing yourself plumber. You deserve it. :wink:
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Plumber

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Post Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:53 am

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

1004-48...... Pan head front pipe raw finish ...... $ Just under three Hamiltons

I searched the internet and found a front header from a company called http://fabercycle.com/
If this nos pipe has a tighter arc than the USA made '48-57 front header (kit, 29-0173) that V-Twin sells, then (in theory, at this stage) you could buy the V-Twin USA set and one of these raw front headers and have a complete set, which would forgo having to cut n' TiG the front header. The OEM rear header pipe may be available from http://nosparts.com/
R 1007-48 65493-48 Rear exhaust pipe black Panhead, FL, FLH '48-'65. usa $ About three Hamiltons
(Note: Both the nosparts.com/ headers and flat-pipe say USA and not OEM. If you inquire about these, ask if they're OEM)
So far we've identified 100% the V-Twin parts that are not made correctly for 1941-1959 OHV. There's a (sometimes narrow) path to follow that provides parts that fit, in order to build an acceptable-to-many 1941-1959 OHV replica, except for rigid frame headers and 3.5 gallon gas tanks (and most recently, possibly, clutch hub tapers that are wrong). Not too bad for a hand-full of independent vendors scattered all over the world, with one general purpose of endeavor and no general contractor available to manage tolerances and quality control.
I have no problems at all with the emerging OHV antique aftermarket. If V-Twin's part doesn't fit, there are alternatives.
One alternative, is to post a trail-mark that everyone can read, so they don't make a wrong turn and end up in a blackberry thicket.
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Pa

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Post Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:03 pm

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

With all of the non fitting parts you uncovered in your extensive researching and fitting Plumber, I would think you would post a list of each and every part you found incorrect. You put a lot of effort, time, and expence, identifying those incorrect parts. You can really serve the biker community by compiling such a list. How about it Bro ?? Pa
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Plumber

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Post Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:12 pm

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

We try and answer any questions on these builds right here on FHP. Actually, you can probably find any problem with the '41-59 builds covered between this site and http://hydra-glide.net/. It's shaping up to become a robust kit-build market. My contacts at V-Twin have indicted some big revelations with the V-Twin bobbers being built for Rhinebeck, NY this June. There's no way Ted is going to let California show NY how to build a show stopper. He has the parts supply factor over us, but what I've built so far, and with Stett's crucial help at times, is way-better than whatever JW's put together (with a gun held to his head) for the V-Twin catalogs. V-Twin's not going to stand by for that. Their Bantam Weight Knuck is going to draw crowds. Maybe they'll have a replica 55FL for contrast of true replication. Anyway, don't leave home without your camera.
My research and involvement over the years has revealed that there are fewer problems experienced with motors that do not exceed 74 cu. in.. Beyond that, that old bromide of: "If you build the top end up, the bottom end will go out. If you build the bottom end up, the top end will go out" seems to ring true, from the post's I've read.
These are the good old days of motorcycling (as long as you have a set of OEM 3.5 gallon tanks), the replica OHV kits go together pretty easy these days (frames, fenders, and all the rest of it). Any problems I've had so far, I posted here for everyone to use. Hope that's helped :!:
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hey doc - wish so, but we aren't scheduled for NY until September.
Looking forward to those pics of whatever V-Twin can put together for the event. Pics and some "story" are always appreciated here. Can you feature seeing one of V-Twins Knuckle's actually run? You-Tube stuff, imo. If they're going to fire up a Teddhead I hope they make a spectacle of it. On turf. With a feet-on-the-foot boards, carving, right-hand, roundhouse donut.
Next up for me is to grind that tab off the flat-pipe, re-position it, and get it TiG-ed, then on to wiring.
The dash is a V-Twin pre-wired assembly. I'm running '48-57 cables A,B & C (with a neutral wire, enclosed in the woven conduit of "A" and exiting as a separate wire, in 1/4" conduit, to connect to the neutral switch of the transmission).
Last edited by Plumber on Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Frankenstein

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Post Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:19 am

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

Well Plumber, I'm planning to go to Rhinebeck this summer, I'll try to remember the camera again. Why don't you come on out and see for yourself?
The wandering Dr Dick :lol:
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Plumber

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Post Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:53 pm

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

Soft jaws and a mechanics rag, lightly squeezed in a vise. I held the part all the time while grinding and sawing.
Image
An 80-grit wheel on a 4" grinder made this one cut in front of the weld. Cut slow. Don't let it turn blue.
Image
Use a big screwdriver in this position if you need to snap the last vestige of weld. Don't bend the hub.
Image
The inside weld was (use lots of WD-40) cut with a narrow blade, 3/4 through the bead to weaken it, and then gently worked back and forth about 40 times until it snapped off. No distortion to the hub during the entire process.
Image
I'll grind the welds flat, assemble the entire exhaust system, and hold this bracket bolted in place to the frame tab, mark an outline around the bracket tabs, on the chrome surface of the flat-pipe, and TiG-er.
•••••••••••••••••••••
First I bent the bracket until, when bolted to the frame the back tab would make contact. Then marked around the front of the tab with a pen.
Image
Then, while the bracket was still bolted to the frame, I marked where the back tab made contact with the pipe. You can see how much different the position of the back tab is, from it's original placement.
Image
The pic is wrong. After bolting everything up both tab holes line up, although I needed to remove some tab material (on the left) so it would clear the crossover tube. All the pipes seat like they should. The exhaust system can be assembled without lifting the front head, or having to "tilt the motor" like the V-Twin catalog suggest.
Image
Done.
Image
I bent the bottom tang downward first, and held it to the bottom plate, then bent it some more, until the bottom tank would not want to pull the "Y" pipe out of horizontal alignment with the flat-pipe, when the muffler clamp was finally tightened.
Image
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Plumber

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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:26 am

Re: 59 FL in 55-57 V-Twin Frame

I talked to Dennis Corso about my front header pipe not having enough arc and we narrowed the problem down to my (thrice returned to Corbin for adjustment) 1997, V-Twin frame. They've sold many header sets and mine has been the only complaint.
They said if a customer wanted to get the flat-pipe and bracket as raw metal, then assemble the exhaust pipes on the machine, bolt the bracket to the frame tab, on mark a line around the bracket where it makes contact with the flat-pipe and then have it TiG welded, they would do that. IMO, that's what you should do, but there again, I'm matching exhausts to a replica frame that has documented problems. It's your call. But, there's help offered on the flat-pipe side of any problems.
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