FAQ  •  Register  •  Login

exxon valdez

Moderators: Curt!, Pa

<<

fhsmith1

Posts: 200

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:10 pm

Location: Georgia

Post Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:03 pm

exxon valdez

My 1946 FL blows lots!! of oil out the vents in the valve covers any time I run it for a while at H/way speeds. The further I run it at 60 or a little above the more it blows out. If I run it at slow(Granny) speeds it is dry. I have had the heads off 3 times trying diffrent things. There are no leaks from anywhere else now. If I catch it just right (get off the bike after running at speed and look with a flashlight) I can see the oil coming out the vents. There is a good vacume signal from the gear case. I have had clear line ran between the front ex. rocker suction fitting and line to see the oil being sucked through. It draws well at slow speeds. I did not run the bike at H/way speeds to see how well it draws. I ran the same line down to a oil cup on the floor. While running it in the garage it sucks oil like a College kid on spring break sucks beer. It appears the thing just can't keep up with the amount of oil the S&S oil pump puts through the V-TWIN rockers. It has the stock ratio oil pump drive gears and a .060" orfice in the fitting coming out of the gear case cover.

I am thinking about trying a smaller orfice in the fitting in the gear case cover.

Has anyone ran an orfice smaller than .060" without problems with the rocker bushings?

The tree huggers in middle Georgia are looking at me like I am killing seals or something.

F
<<

knucknutz

Posts: 35

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:37 pm

Location: clear creek,id

Post Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:38 pm

Re: exxon valdez

go back a page or so to "too much oil" and read it. what pressure do you have? i have s+s pump that ran 38 lb cold an 32 hot with .060 in timin cover an in bango bolts an motor puked oil out heads,cut the pressure relive spring off a little shorter till i had 18 lb cold and bike quit gussing,now i 'm fightin to much oil to valve guides.i set pressure to 10 lb cold 2-3 hot at idle-5 lbs hot goin down road with a .060 hole in fitting in timin cover an .048 holes in bango bolts in heads and bike smoked ligthly when bike was hot,new motor.i took heads off an there was no oil standing in tins but it was wetter than i've seen it before,but when i took manifold off i had 60 w. oil standin in intake manifold an in ports.you say you have v-twin rockers an i do to, an i think that those brass bushings with the spiral groves are the problem.stock rockers fed from one end to the other throught solid bushings which metered oil some ,but with these there fed from middle out throught groves,no metering,and hole by valve is being fed off one of these groves ,which is why i,m gettin to much oil to guide and why heads fill up so easy.never had this with stock stuff.i think to run these arms you need to run seals on int. guides.my guides are set at .0042-.0044. i said it before,all my problems with this f$#*in motor i can sum up in one word,AFTERMARKET .hope this helps
<<

45Brit

Posts: 1398

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:33 am

Re: exxon valdez

--
Last edited by 45Brit on Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
<<

Plumber

Posts: 1536

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: exxon valdez

, an i think that those brass bushings with the spiral groves are the problem.stock rockers fed from one end to the other throught solid bushings which metered oil some ,but with these there fed from middle out through grooves, no metering abiltiy (like on the arms of old, that you could turn clockwise or counter-clockwise to reduce the oil flow), and hole by the valve is being fed off one of these grooves ,which is why i,m gettin to much oil to guide and why heads fill up so easy

I have a set of VTwin Knuckle heads with the same grove rocker arm bushings. Sounds like what you're saying is that since the groove is there now, and since the rocker arm is fed from the center of the arm, there's not an even dispersion of oil distributed to the oiling holes in the rocker arm, and that a great amount of the oil is so near the one hole near the valve that oil is being dumped in there before it can reach other areas of the rocker arm.
I don't know what you're using as a restricting orifice , but why don't you try and fill the (cam cover) adapter fitting with solder and drilling only a 0.030" hole in the solder. Then your restricting the flow by half of the 0.060" orifice you have in there now. The worst that could happen is that you starve the end (pushrod) ball-end oil hole of the arm. Which is not good of course, or maybe you won't starve it . If you starve the rocker arms they'll start squeaking, so if you try the 0.030" orifice and run it and the lower spring covers don't overfill anymore, then pull the front intake pushrod and look at the socket-end and stick your finger up into the rocker cover and feel the ball-end of the rocker end and see if there's any oil :?:
In theory, you could reduce the orifice even further, by heating the solder out, re-filling it and re-drilling it for 0.020".
<<

fhsmith1

Posts: 200

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:10 pm

Location: Georgia

Post Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:54 pm

Re: exxon valdez

KNUCKNUTZ, PLUMBER
I hooked up a gauge today to look at oil pressure. The bike pumps about 40 psi. This reading is cold, hot, idle or at h/way speeds, dosent matter. Now I start to look for over oil pressure problems. The bike has a cast aluminum S&S oil pump. The pressure regulator spring has not been modified. I looked at it today and compared it to the one out of one of my Shovelheads. They are the same. I swapped the springs anyway. No change. Then I left the spring out completly. It then read very little to no oil pressure. I then statred cutting small portions of the spring off untill the pressure was about 25 to 30 PSI. I also added smaller orfices to the fittings in the rocker boxes. They are at .025" now. I will leave the pressure gauge hooked up for a while to evaluate.
My first Shovelhead was a 1972. It would always hold high pressure, or at least by today's standards. I have been told it was because the older shovelheads had a side pinion oil supply hole and it only oiled the rods part time. This is because the hole in the pinion shaft would only align with the supply hole in the bushing in one position in the 360 deg. rotation. The Knuck is the same.
Is this the reason for the higher pressure?
I was particularly careful when I had the gear case cover off to look at the oil passages. They all looked fine and would pass oil from a squirt cup.
I will not get a chance to ride the bike for a few days.
I will keep you posted.
Thanks
F
<<

Plumber

Posts: 1536

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:23 pm

Re: exxon valdez

This is because the hole in the pinion shaft would only align with the supply hole in the bushing in one position in the 360 deg. rotation. The Knuck is the same.

I have -58 side oiling shafts in my Pan motors, but I believe the oil pressure is generated by the S&S wider gear surface and not increased because of the restricted oiling through the pinion bushing on a one time revolution. You would have less flow with the side-oiling pinion shaft, but the pressure would be the same, because even though the side-oiler shaft has backed up the flow, it wouldn't increase the pump's pressure output, any more than the pump could generate, by whatever head-pressure the gear width and gear speed dictated, (imo).
S&S offer a gear change suggestion in their book, to "speed up" the oil delivery, but warn that that's not what you'd want for the Knuckle motor. So, the S&S pump is not the problem (that can be remedied other than the orifice reduction), and it sounds as though the V-Twin spiral bushing is the problem. First I've heard of this. Thanks for bringing it up.
<<

Cotten

User avatar

Posts: 2667

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 1999 12:01 am

Location: Central Illinois, USA

Post Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:12 pm

Re: exxon valdez

>>The bike pumps about 40 psi. This reading is cold, hot, idle or at h/way speeds, dosent matter.<<

(Either the gauge is stuck, or)
You are running a non-Newtonian lubricant?

A linear pressure curve would indicate you have perfected a pretty highly advanced design of pump!
Or its a clue to the problem.

...Cotten
<<

knucknutz

Posts: 35

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:37 pm

Location: clear creek,id

Post Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: exxon valdez

when i cut my pressure from 40 lb to 18lb heads quit gussin but bike smoked,so i kept cuttin pressure.s&s litature says that pump is suppose to put out 15-12 lb cold an 2-3 lb hot both at idle,i called s-s and talked to them for 45 mins ,no help,they couldnt tell me why pressure was so high.i ask them when they came up with this.060 hole in fitting in timing cover ,what pressure were you runnin? all i got was dead air(nothing).all he said was"some people plug fittings in heads to an drill.060 hole in them to". i ask him about goin smaller than .060 an he said dont do it.i ask him about these brass bushings with the groves in them, he said put the stock ones back in an see if that stops it,like it was like workin on a freakin evo or something,i dont think he ever worked on a knuck.these pumps where made to feed hyd lifters & PUMP 1-2 ozs of oil per min. to primary chain ,an this oil now needs to be bipassed, the reson for cutting spring,and also why pressure is so high.i ran this s-s pump on a motor for 5600 miles till pinion bearings failed,which i think was do to junk bearing cages(guess where i got them) and i didnt have any problems at all with heads,no pluged an drilled to .060 fittings,an was runnin 38-32 lbs of pressure all the time but i was runnin stock rocker arms that had .0025-.0035 wear so i went with new ones ,wanted fhp ones but they would never call back,so i got v_twin ones,which had .0025 clearance rigth out of box,h-d says .0005-.0015,so i didnt gain much,thats why i think its those brass bushing with those groves IMO
<<

Plumber

Posts: 1536

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:23 pm

Re: exxon valdez

o i got v_twin ones,which had .0025 clearance rigth out of box,h-d says .0005-.0015,so i didnt gain much,thats why i think its those brass bushing with those groves

Might be that spiral bushing then, plus that extra 0.010" clearance. Sounds like you have a good history to compare performance.
That extra clearance is side-to-side at the end of the rocker arm to the head flange? The 32E armature washer (kit) has hardened thrust washers that are 0.008*" thick. There was one of those on a set of 74" Knuck heads I have, that had a rear rocker with too much side-play. It worked, and that armature washer has been used for that purpose for 60+ yrs.
<<

knucknutz

Posts: 35

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:37 pm

Location: clear creek,id

Post Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:25 pm

Re: exxon valdez

plumber,i,m talkin rocker arm shaft to bushing clearance of .0025,.001 over what h-d says for max.,end clearance was .030 to.035 and had to put two an some three shims on each one to get what h-d says,they are junk,dont buy any.fhp arms come unfitted,which would have been better.but i think they also have these bushing with groves.did fhp run vavle seals on there intakes? anyboby know
Last edited by knucknutz on Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
<<

knucknutz

Posts: 35

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:37 pm

Location: clear creek,id

Post Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:35 pm

Re: exxon valdez

flsmith 1,is't this makin it smoke an blow oil out pipes? you never said.just wonderin
<<

john k. endrizzi

User avatar

Posts: 726

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 1999 1:01 am

Location: nekoosa,wisconsin,usa

Post Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:19 am

Re: exxon valdez

knucknutz,
I would suggest that you get in touch with Al Schumann at S&S. I had oiling problems with a custom Knuckle motor that Accurate Engineering built for me. He got right down to it.( I had sent the motor back to Accurate prior to this and they sent it back with no change)
JKE
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
<<

fhsmith1

Posts: 200

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:10 pm

Location: Georgia

Post Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:19 pm

Re: exxon valdez

All
Bike is running 20w50 Rev Teck oil. The oil gauge is an automatic transmission pressure gauge. The gauge can't be stuck or it would not go down when I cut off small parts of the spring. I am running valve seals on the guides but the rear pipe is puffing some blue smoke after running it. If something is plugging the oil passage to the pinion bushing. it would explain the unusually high reading becuse the only place for the oil to go is to the rockers and the pressure regulator. This may also be the issue with knucknutz since his pressures are very similar. If it is not plugged it would still relieve pressure through the pinion for a few degrees in the rotation. As I remember the 1972 Shovelhead I described the oil pressure reading was high but the gauge needle would shake up and down especially at idle, possibly from the relief of pressure through the pinion at the 1 spot in the rotation.
My bike has been together for about 2300 miles since goung through the bottom end. It didn't puke oil out for a long time. It always did smoke a little out the back pipe. What caused me to take it apart the 2nd time is that it stuck a valve. When I took it apart there was burned oil between the valve stem and guide. That leads me to believe it had too much oil then. That is when I installed the stem seals and vented the rocker boxes. They had no vents before.
F
<<

Cotten

User avatar

Posts: 2667

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 1999 12:01 am

Location: Central Illinois, USA

Post Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:03 pm

Re: exxon valdez

flhsmith!

You previously posted:
>>The bike pumps about 40 psi. This reading is cold, hot, idle or at h/way speeds, dosent matter.<<

That ain't natural.

No matter what oil you run, viscosity will always vary with temperature, and so will the resistance of the motor. (Oils are Newtonian fluids. They wouldn't work otherwise.)
If your indicator doesn't reflect this, trash it, as it is only a dangerous distraction from your real concerns.

Now you tell us:
>>What caused me to take it apart the 2nd time is that it stuck a valve.

Don't blame the oil; It takes excessive heat to stick a valve.

Sounds like the motor has a rough life ahead of it.

...Cotten
<<

BrentCross@Bronko's

Posts: 88

Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:20 pm

Post Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:14 am

Re: exxon valdez

Well said Cotten.

Also: "It takes excessive heat to stick a valve." -- as well as guide to stem clearances that are too tight. We routinely have to put in a little extra clearance in every air-cooled engine's heads that we do to compensate for poor quality fuel and it's lack of lubrication. So if one application specs out at .002" stem to guide fit we now set them up at .003" to be safe.
<<

45Brit

Posts: 1398

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:38 am

Re: exxon valdez

--
Last edited by 45Brit on Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
<<

fhsmith1

Posts: 200

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:10 pm

Location: Georgia

Post Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:02 pm

Re: exxon valdez

Cotten
I know "IT AINT NATURAL"!! but if knucknutz had almost the same readings before he started cutting his spring it is possible. I will try a diffrent gauge just to see. BUT if there is no where for the oil to go accept through the .060" orfice in the gear case cover fitting it has to build pressure till it overcomes the pressure regulator valve setting. That is set by spring tension. The spring dosent care if it is hot or cold. The oil viscosity is the only thing that changes. My worry is the passage in the gearcase cover going to the pinion bushing may be plugged by somehing. It was clear when I had it off but something could have gotten it since. If so that may be the same thing going on with knucknutz?
Engine ran fine untill about 2000 miles after rebuild it started running very rough and clattering in the top end after it got hot one day. It stopped this by itself before I could get pulled over. I then rode it on at about 60-70 mph for about a 30 mile stretch. I then saw in my mirror LOTS of smoke. It was blowing it out the rockers all over. I pulled it apart and found both the ex. valves were hard to get out of the guides. The rockers were full of oil & there was burned oil between the guides and stems. I then started reserching here to find I had no rocker vent holes. I blamed the whole thing on that, cut the stems down to fit seals on the top, added vent holes in the cups and added some extra clearence in the guides about .004-.005". I also spent some amount of time fitting the cups and tins together. It runs fine now but blows oil out the vents after riding at 60-70 mph for a little while. I never had a gauge on it before. That was after reading knucknutz post.
<<

fhsmith1

Posts: 200

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:10 pm

Location: Georgia

Post Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:00 pm

Re: exxon valdez

Follow Up
I was worried that the cause of my excessive oil pressure readings were passages in either the gear case cover, pinion shaft of rod pin was plugged by something. I checked this with a vacume gauge rigged to the fitting in the gear case cover, blocking the oil supply line from the tank to the pump and applying vacume with a hand held vacume pump to the gear case cover fitting while slowly turning the engine. It held vacume for most of the 360 degrees of revolution. There was about 5 degrees of rotation that the rig would hold no vacume. As soon as I turned the engine a little more it would again hold vacume. I then tried the same thing with a squirt cup applying pressure to the same fitting. It did about the same thing, holding pressure for most of the revoilution. There was about 5 degrees where the squirt cup appeared to be squirting freely with little to no resistance. All this has convinced me the oil passages are OK.
I them took your advise. I drilled and tapped the oil fittings in the rockers. I fitted carb. jets in them. I soldered the holes up in the jets and drilled the hole back through with a carb jet drill . I started with a .0225" bit. This made me afraid the very small orfices may get plugged by debris. I found a very fine screen made for an automotive automatic transmission valve body. It was a small task to fit the screen into the fitting in the gear case cover. I tested it first for flow. It flowed cold 20w50 oil with little to no resistance.
I rode the bike after all this today. I rode about 25 miles at between 55-65 mph. I can tell no diffrence from the top end noise. The tailpipes appear to be drying up. Best of all, It is not gushing oil out. :lol:
The oil pressure still holds at very close to the same reading whether it is hot, cold, idle or h/way speed. After cutting the pressure regulator spring the last time it reads about 20 lbs. I did swap gauges just to make sure it was not a gauge problem.
I plan to leave the gauge hooked up for a while just to see how much it changes after the new oil gets some miles on it.
Wish Me Luck
F
<<

Plumber

Posts: 1536

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:56 am

Re: exxon valdez

I drilled and tapped the oil fittings in the rockers.

Do you mean you drilled the existing oil holes in the rocker arm to accept carb jets, or put restriction jets in the front and rear rocker cover 1/4" x flare adapter fittings?
----------------------
Now I'm with ya' mechanically. I hope it works out for you.
Last edited by Plumber on Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
<<

fhsmith1

Posts: 200

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:10 pm

Location: Georgia

Post Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:04 pm

Re: exxon valdez

Plumber
1/4" x flare adapter fittings
F
Next

Return to Knuckles

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007, 2012 phpBB Group.