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3.5 Gallon Gas Tanks

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Plumber

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Location: S.Calif.

Post Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:36 pm

Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

What gas tanks will S&S recommend for the P-Series Pan Motor?
How about a pre-June 2008 build-off preview of a new P-Series motor (engine) in a rigid V-Twin frame with gas tanks? Be sure and include a birds-eye view of the rear of the gas tank over the rear Pan cover as shown below. I'd like to see what S&S has in mind for finished, kit-builds to present to the public in June 2008. Are they going to suggest the motor buyers, "Go find an OEM set of tanks on e-bay." (on the left)?
Or, guide their customers to the "longriders" (on the right)? "Here's your motor, go put some Shovelhead gas tanks on it and try not to look at the machine as a representation of a stock Panhead."
Hardly seems the way to kick-off the summer season and the new P-Series motor, imo.
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Last edited by Plumber on Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cotten

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Location: Central Illinois, USA

Post Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:39 pm

Re: Why CCI® Should Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

I've been biting my tongue, but somebody has to point out the obvious:

CCI has always pandered other manufacturer's factory seconds and marginal crap. Even though I learned quickly not to deal with them years and years ago, customers still walked in my door with their mailorder "bargains" to install. Once I saw the label, I knew there would be grief, every time.

If we wish to encourage anyone to make quality reproduction tanks, CCI would be the last choice on earth.

...Cotten
PS: Matt Blake makes the best in his field, but asking him to cater to the Harley masses would ruin everything. Quality such as Matt's cannot be punched out mindlessly.
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Plumber

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Post Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:52 pm

Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

No reason to have to sit back and say nothing, if you have something to add. Matt Blake making tanks for a few is the same as buying OEM tanks on e-bay. He can make a few tanks and you can go on ebay and maybe get a set. No dispute there. Understood.
This topic is about why V-Twin should make real Pan tanks instead of Pan/Shovel tanks. Maybe they're the wrong people to ask, since they made the last one's wrong, but generally, the more someone does something the better they get at it. I'm not here to argue or split hairs on an issue. If V-Twin won't make them, then all the P-Series motors that S&S is making are going under sluggy AM, 3.5 or coffin tanks or god knows what, 5 gallon fat bobs? and they'll look phony. But, go ahead and market bad examples of Panheads ya' stoopid repoppers. I won't build one. The AM tanks are a joke and the replica industry is dead-ended because of it.
Last edited by Plumber on Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chris Haynes

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Post Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:39 pm

Re: Why CCI® Should Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

Plumber. CCI ain't makin' them. Those folks that eat a lot of rice are the ones makin' them and they make the same tanks for everybody.
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Cotten

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Post Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:12 pm

Re: Why CCI® Should Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

CCI will never care about the vintage industry.

Paughco might.

...Cotten
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Chris Haynes

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Post Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:21 pm

Re: Why CCI® Should Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

Thats why they call it Custom Chrome Inc and not Reproduction Parts Inc. CCI never has and never will give a poop about restorers.
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john k. endrizzi

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Post Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:06 am

Re: Why CCI® Should Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

O.K. Kirk,
Here is your big chance. Step up to the plate and BE THE BIG NUTS in the replication industry.
From the Cyril Huze blog :
Today I received a call I really didn’t expect. A representative of Lincoln International Advisors, an investment bank based in Chicago contacted me to know if I was interested in buying Global Motorsports Inc.(GMG). For more than 30 years the Company has provided enthusiasts with aftermarket parts to enhance the performance and appeal of their motorcycles. GMG distributes approximately 45,000 products to more than 12,000 dealers in North America, Europe and Asia. GMG’s organization includes Custom Chrome, Inc. (CCI), an aftermarket distributor of Harley Davidson motorcycle parts and accessories headquartered in Morgan Hill, CA; Custom Chrome Europe, Inc. (CCE), a distribution company located in Germany that specializes in aftermarket accessories for Harley Davidson motorcycles and other cruiser motorcycle, Jammer Cycle Products (JAMMER) a distributor of accessories and aftermarket parts for “old school” motorcycles; and Motorcycle Stuff Inc. (MSI), a distributor of motorcycle parts and accessories for Metric motorcycles including BMW, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha and other leading brands. In addition, the Company offers leading proprietary brands such as RevTech®, Motor Factory™ and Santee® which enjoy strong brand equity.
JKE
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
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Plumber

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Post Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:22 am

Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

Circling the drain. Over-extended, under funded, with gobs of dead-end products that not only look bad, but won't fit anything on two wheels.
Next to go will be the Tedd Cycle, Inc. Kansas City branch. Go ahead on though, make some more Evolution® bolt on gee-gaw's. Bikers are stupid, make anything you want wrong, they won't complain. Call it "replica", then heat up the tires on UPS trucks making deliveries and returns non-stop.
Poor planning, apathy, neglect and bad karma all come home eventually.
Last edited by Plumber on Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chris Haynes

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Post Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:06 am

Re: Why CCI® Should Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

Well John,
Are ya gonna pay cash or finance the deal? :mrgreen:
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john k. endrizzi

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Post Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:02 am

Re: Why CCI® Should Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

Chris,
I figured that we would let the underground leak detector buy it up. Then maybe you and I could work as stock boys and get a 10 fisheads on the dollar discount on returned tanks !
JKE
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
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Plumber

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Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:01 pm

A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

We can figure out how to make the shut off valve not leak.
Here's the 8 sealing surfaces. First of 7:
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And the eighth sealing surface is the rim on the bottom of the tank.
The brass seals are reusable up until they get ring-scored. The torque to tighten the shut off valve is considerable (With 10" Crescent wrench type of leverage, and a 1" wrench on the flats to kep the banjo steady). I used Seal-All® in Calif. gas in 2004, on all eight surfaces, and my valve did not leak. I would always turn my supply knob down to "off" every time I parked the bike. I'll try Seal-All again, since I still have the same tube from 2000.
From a plumbing aspect, this valve and twin washer assembly is not used. The shut off valve is a laminate-compression seal, I suppose, since there's no compression ferrule, just the brass (not very crushable) washer. If it were softer brass it would eventually tilt and throw the rod seating off :?:
The first point of irregularities in an aftermarket valve, would be the chromed surface of the #1. shut off seat and then both sides of the chromed banjo fitting, #6, #7. Most of the AM valves, seats and banjo seal surfaces are slightly irregular and chromed, so you can't really "deck" the banjo surfaces. If you do, then it throws the rod alignment off, between the rod and seat. I've done it before. The rod becomes hard to turn because it's off center and doesn't want to seat any more. I ruined a banjo line trying to "improve" on the mating surfaces, and probably other people have done the same thing, and run to the alignment tool for a solution and that might not work.
What gasket will compress, not distort, and fill any irregularities in the valve seat and banjo surfaces :?: Delrin? PEEK :?: Although you can re-use the brass washers until they get ridged and that's a good feature, a lighter gauge disposable crush washer might work better.
Using Linkert float bowl crush washers might affect the rod turning, since they'll be thicker when squashed.
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Tedd Cycle and the AMCA are affiliated. The AMCA supports V-Twin and their replication efforts 100%.
Last edited by Plumber on Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:37 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Plumber

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Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:31 pm

Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

We agree with you - The industry is in trouble but it isn't because of
these tanks - We think Tedd has kept the industry afloat. If it
weren't for him we wouldn't have this business - he is the only one in
the mass market who has even attempted to make this old stuff. We
agree it seems ridiculous that he would go to the effort to make these
parts and not make it correctly but we aren't sitting in his chair. We
think the industry is failing because its a dying breed - there just
isn't enough appreciation for these years of bikes.- industry source

-------------------------------------
Some of us who actually restore these OHV motorcycles, with our own two hands, believe "build the tanks, and the customers will come". Remember, the one-kit-per-person EPA provision.
The last words spoken to me by Lou Tractenburg @ STD (on the topic of why they would not make spigot exhaust Pan heads) were, ".....we don't get many calls for the original type (Pan) heads, although I suppose if we did make the (spigot) heads, people would buy them". Now I read that people do order them. Those same people will order correct tanks too.
We agree it seems ridiculous that they would go to the effort to make these
tanks, and not make it correctly, but we aren't sitting in his chair.- industry source

These quotes are worthy of an economic/business/logistics "why" study. I agree with them. To me, it is also an example of a "spiral axial twist" (until I can come up with a better term), or a 180-degree twist, between dreaming about true replica 3.5 tanks and the actual production reality of getting what your jobber actually produces for you.
It might be that the quality control for just the shut off valve holes on the left tank alone, make the whole project too expensive, unless V-Twin sold sugg. retail $1,200.00 replica tanks. Who'd want to invest 300K in producing one style of gas tank, when there aren't lines of people around the block waiting for them?
I'll settle for that reason, but how about if yV-Twin pays for less quality control and then sells a shut off valve alignment tool with every set of tanks too :?: Fine with me. Not a problem, as long as my reserve valve seats. I'll buy the first set of tanks they make, and a tool, then sell the alignment tool on e-bay when I'm done with it.
Last edited by Plumber on Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:12 pm, edited 18 times in total.
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Plumber

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Post Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:06 pm

:arrow:
Last edited by Plumber on Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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john HD

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Post Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:51 pm

Re: Why CCI® Should Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

plumber

you do know you can make those brass washers softer by annealing them with a torch. (propane) also, seem to have no problems with the linkert bowl washers on my bike, the real ones anyway.

john
Last edited by john HD on Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chris Haynes

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Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:16 pm

Re: Why CCI® Should Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

Hey Plumber,
If you want these Taiwan tanks so damn bad why don't you cough up the bucks from your book sales and have the Taiwan guys make them correctly. They don't care who they make parts for as long as the checks don't bounce.
Back in the '70's a guy named Ray Boone got the Taiwan ball rolling. Then everybody else hopped on the bandwagon. Do ya remember to old Taiwan parts that were marked RBE? Ray Boone Enterprises.
I wonder what happened to Ray?

If ya want to find out who to talk to in Taiwan ask Steve Masacotti at Paughco.
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Plumber

Posts: 1536

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:39 pm

:arrow:
Last edited by Plumber on Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:39 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Chris Haynes

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Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:46 pm

Re: Why CCI® Should Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

Please introduce the concept to him.

Get off yer ass and do it yourself and quit asking others to do you work for you. If you want it done, DO IT! Otherwise quit yer whinin' I have told you who to contact for information. Get off yer duff.
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Plumber

Posts: 1536

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:51 pm

Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

Yea, you mentioned all that and then you have no real contacts, just people names. Got it. (aka_ "my dad has that tool in his truck.....but it's locked in his tool box and he won't let me use it" :wink:
Well we'll see if Tedd makes the one style I've suggested. If he doesn't so what? Buy a real set on line.
Last edited by Plumber on Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Chris Haynes

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Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:59 pm

Re: Why CCI® Should Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

If giving you the name of the person who has traveled extensively to Taiwan to get things made is not a contact I don't know what it is.
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Plumber

Posts: 1536

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:41 pm

Make A "New" 3.5 Gallon Tank

you do know you can make those brass washers softer by annealing them with a torch. (propane) also, seem to have no problems with the linkert bowl washers on my bike, the real ones anyway.- johnHD

hey john, i didn't see this. Okay, well there it is. Heat the brass washers with a torch. Let them air-cool. Tighten the seat hex with a 10" crescent backed by a 1" open-end. I didn't see any Seal-All® mentioned. Is that it? If so, problem solved right here on FHP.
Also, seem to have no problems with the linkert bowl washers on my bike, the real ones anyway.

Do you mean you use two (okay real, but repop are the same) Linkert float bowl washers sandwiching the banjo? Two, and that works without affecting the operation of the shut off rod ?

I guess all your doing is adding the distance (of the width) of the two LInkert float bowl washers for the rod to travel until it stops turning and seats. The crossover line gets lowered a tiny bit, but the right tank is a flare nipple and can handle the rake, or you could bend the flared end of the tube up a little at the banjo connection, and re-arc the flared end of the tube for the (right) tank, for a good straight-on flare connection. Thanks :!:
So now, lets see..the historically cantankerous, fuel weeping, shut off valve is remedied. And the only pieces we don't have for the restorer's, replicators, and new pilgrims - are the one single style, foot shift, non-emblem, 1947 - (make the tank back's fit '48-65 Pan) 1965, 3.5 gallon gas tanks, with working (62075-50) shut off rod and seat.
Last edited by Plumber on Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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