FAQ  •  Register  •  Login

The Wishbone 45"/4sp thread

Moderators: Curt!, Pa

<<

milwaukee belle

User avatar

Posts: 922

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:01 am

Location: South Provence of FRANCE

Post Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:07 am

:shock: i am always so surprised when i think we all are livin' at opposite sides of the planet , and we are here , to talk ....findin' solutions .....kiddin'....
wonderful times ....
THIS is what i call the web .
<<

glove

Posts: 13

Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:55 am

Location: Indiana

Post Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:48 pm

Just a thought...
The red wire is my "kill switch"- correct?
So I dont need any other connections but the two plug wires?
I dont think the wico is ran to the ignition switch.
<<

Scott

Posts: 113

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 1:01 am

Post Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:58 pm

Does anyone know the correct orientation for the points cam lobes. If 180 degrees isn't correct, what should be the spacing between the lobes? I have a Sportster mag with the lobes not evenly spaced, but no one can tell me why or if lobes located 180 degrees apart would be close enough.
<<

steph

User avatar

Posts: 630

Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:01 am

Location: belgium

Post Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:23 am

As the Harley always was a 45° twin the ignition lobes imo should be 157,5° apart.
Stéph
P.S. with 180° you'll start the Harley on 1 cyl at full advance and the other will be too late, I think, but iff I'm wrong please correct me.
<<

h.d.ryder

Posts: 285

Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 1:01 am

Location: Cranbrook B.C. Canada

Post Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:19 am

Glove, if you are having trouble with your mag, why not just throw in a Timer and a battery ignition, there`s lots of timers out there,you`re going to need a generator anyhow,and a battery.You could be riding,while you send your mag out to be repaired,and put it back in at a later date. Just a suggestion.
Larry
<<

glove

Posts: 13

Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:55 am

Location: Indiana

Post Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:24 pm

Well I was trying to work with what I had. I figured some points and a new condenser, clean the carb, new pugs, walla.... things got taken a little further.
I removed the engine and trans so I can get the frame in shape. I am going to go through the trans and the engine before I re-assemble, just to make sure all is well.
I found an ugly sight as I pulled the engien sprocket off...
Image
I would imagine the balance of this is far from good. Maybe not...
surely this is not factory?

I am back to my first thougts- PANHEAD engine (sorry Fran). Its a special frame w/ some cool forks. Get the hand shift-foot clutch back together, some floor-boards and some fenders (stock rear (maybe bobbed)- custom front).
I will be keeping this little 45. It will go back on the frame to pull me around till someone tells me about where to find a 1948 FS / ES or FL / EL engine or I luck into one somewhere.
I wouldnt mind going for the full out sidecar set-up, but the sporty high compression mght be a little more fun.
Either way- I am looking for something 1948 panhead to put in it.

For now I am busy with striping the frame down, and ordering some gaskets.
<<

panic

Post Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:10 pm

Last edited by panic on Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
<<

milwaukee belle

User avatar

Posts: 922

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:01 am

Location: South Provence of FRANCE

Post Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:38 pm

but...does anybody here has a clear PIC of a wico lobes for a V-TWIN ?
<<

Scott

Posts: 113

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 1:01 am

Post Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:10 pm

Mutt sent me these photos and information a while back. The part no. for the correct shaft is Y6547. The photos below are of the correct rotor/shaft/point cam. I want to try to grind a four cylinder points cam so it fires correctly. I haven't summoned up the courage to try. The four cylinder points cam looks like a perfect square, with each corner serving as a lobe. Mutt told me, though it's not clear in the photos, that the magnets were 180 degrees apart and that the cam lobes appeared to be spaced the same. I think I need to hold part no. Y6547 in front of me. Thanks again to Mutt for all the info and images. I hope he won't mind me sharing it here.

Image

Image

Image

Image
<<

panic

Post Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:29 pm

Last edited by panic on Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
<<

glove

Posts: 13

Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:55 am

Location: Indiana

Post Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:54 pm

from what I can say- that shaft looks just like mine. I will pull it to verify the numbers, but from what I read I will need the front head off to measure when its 9/32(?) from TDC- my manual has the measurment, i just need to look-
so is that correct? If I pull the mag I will need to pull a head to get thiings back in time?
<<

Scott

Posts: 113

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 1:01 am

Post Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:47 am

panic wrote:I would guess that a cam grinder or key cutter (pantograph) could make the lobes match a sample taken from a Fairbanks. The lobe bodies are opposite, the leading edge of the ramp isn't.


Panic - can you clarify that please. Are you saying that the highest point on each lobe is 180 degrees apart, but that the ramp leading to each high point is different? My knowledge of how things work was exceeded some time ago, but does the amount of time the points take to open (via the shape and duration of the ramp leading to that point) affect the spark?

I've got an old, beat up, worn out Fairbanks shaft remnant that I can use as a pattern. I'll use that, a bench grinder with narrow wheel, and a very steady hand.
<<

panic

Post Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:51 am

Last edited by panic on Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
<<

Frankenstein

User avatar

Posts: 1531

Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Post Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:43 pm

Just looking this over and making some observations:

With a 1 inch wide magnet face equalling a 57degree duration on the face of the 2 inch rotor, there is no problem with the magnets being an equal 180 degrees apart. And they will be much better balanced if they are 180 degrees as opposed to say 150 deg. apart. It's a compromise solution, but it should work. The important thing is that the magnets are between the pole pieces of the coil winding when the points open. It's that old high school physics thing where you pass a wire through a magnetic field and make electricity. Only here, we pass moving magnets past stationary wires, with the magnetism being coupled through the coil of wire with the iron pole pieces.
Let's say the first cam lobe opens after the middle of the magnets have rotated past the middle of the coil pole pieces. No problem, we're making some, though not max juice. Then the second cam lobe will open the points again when the middle of the magnets have almost passed by the pole pieces again. The second lobe opens the points 157.5 degrees after the first lobe.
I'm assuming front cyl firing first, then rear.

Say the points opened just as the rear of the magnets passed the pole pieces. It's 156.5 degrees from the trailing edge of the first magnet to the middle of the second magnet. And it's 157.5 degrees from the front lobe opening to the rear lobe opening. almost the same. So if we set it up so that the front lobe is opening a small time before the trailing edge of the magnet passes by the pole pieces the rear lobe will be opening when the magnets are nearly centered on the pole pieces, giving plenty of juice to make a spark. The front spark is a little past its "prime" but the rear is quite strong.
Maybe the exact openings are at somewhat different points on the magnets than I give in the example, but the theory is probably valid.
I'm thinking, although I can't see these relationships clearly in the pictures of the rotor, that this is the compromise that was worked out. At kicking speeds, it might be a little harder than ideal to start, but once running, there should be plenty of spark. My experience with Lucas magnetos, where you can vary the relative position of points opening to the position of the magnets in the pole pieces says it's a very workable solution. Lucas varied probably 15 degrees or so, with no ill effects. (well, if you didn't retard them there were ill effects, but that's another story :-) )
Does that make any sense??
By the way, I missed the reference to Mu metal IP, were we shielding something here?

Dr. Dick
<<

Scott

Posts: 113

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 1:01 am

Post Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:24 pm

Thanks to the good doctor for chiming in. I took some photos to (hopefully) better demonstrate what I'm talking about. I stole some kid's magic markers and went to town. You're looking at the top of a Wico rotor intended for a four-cylinder engine. The points cam is almost a perfect square, with the highest point of each lobe 90 degrees apart. There are also four magnets (actually, one giant magnet shielded by some metal that doesn't conduct magnetism). I'm only using two of the magnets and two of the points cams. My cap grounds out the other two sparks to the body. The purple marker shows where the magnets are located, and the green lines point out from the points cam lobe. If I understand what Dick is saying, this should work acceptably well on a flathead 45. Right? Sorry for the bad pics - they're from a cereal box quality camera.

I saw a 45 with a tractor mag adapted, far more crudely than what I'm doing. Never stuck around long enough to hear it run, though. I'd love to hear from someone who's actually done this.

Image
Image


Frankenstein wrote:Just looking this over and making some observations:

With a 1 inch wide magnet face equalling a 57degree duration on the face of the 2 inch rotor, there is no problem with the magnets being an equal 180 degrees apart. And they will be much better balanced if they are 180 degrees as opposed to say 150 deg. apart. It's a compromise solution, but it should work. The important thing is that the magnets are between the pole pieces of the coil winding when the points open. It's that old high school physics thing where you pass a wire through a magnetic field and make electricity. Only here, we pass moving magnets past stationary wires, with the magnetism being coupled through the coil of wire with the iron pole pieces.
Let's say the first cam lobe opens after the middle of the magnets have rotated past the middle of the coil pole pieces. No problem, we're making some, though not max juice. Then the second cam lobe will open the points again when the middle of the magnets have almost passed by the pole pieces again. The second lobe opens the points 157.5 degrees after the first lobe.
I'm assuming front cyl firing first, then rear.

Say the points opened just as the rear of the magnets passed the pole pieces. It's 156.5 degrees from the trailing edge of the first magnet to the middle of the second magnet. And it's 157.5 degrees from the front lobe opening to the rear lobe opening. almost the same. So if we set it up so that the front lobe is opening a small time before the trailing edge of the magnet passes by the pole pieces the rear lobe will be opening when the magnets are nearly centered on the pole pieces, giving plenty of juice to make a spark. The front spark is a little past its "prime" but the rear is quite strong.
Maybe the exact openings are at somewhat different points on the magnets than I give in the example, but the theory is probably valid.
I'm thinking, although I can't see these relationships clearly in the pictures of the rotor, that this is the compromise that was worked out. At kicking speeds, it might be a little harder than ideal to start, but once running, there should be plenty of spark. My experience with Lucas magnetos, where you can vary the relative position of points opening to the position of the magnets in the pole pieces says it's a very workable solution. Lucas varied probably 15 degrees or so, with no ill effects. (well, if you didn't retard them there were ill effects, but that's another story :-) )
Does that make any sense??
By the way, I missed the reference to Mu metal IP, were we shielding something here?

Dr. Dick
<<

steph

User avatar

Posts: 630

Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:01 am

Location: belgium

Post Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:47 am

Scott I think you missed something in Dick's explanation : he's just saying that converting the 180° lobes to 157,5° with the magnets at 180° will still work cause the firing falls in what I see as the useable magnetism.
It might be me that's wrong...
Stéph
<<

Scott

Posts: 113

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 1:01 am

Post Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:33 am

Thanks - I fell victim to my short attention span.

Here's my attempt at crude lobe reshaping - part I. Cut the cam off a junk Sportster shaft laying in the scrap pile and drill a lengthwise hole through it. Drill a hole through the Wico shaft, also lengthwise, and thread accordingly. Screw the two together and use preferred scientific method of lining up the lode centers. Panic & Dick were right - the lobe centers on two of the four-cylinder lobes are in the same place as the Harley lobes. It's just the approach that's different (not to mention the two extra lobes). Here's my crude model - prior to grinding.

Image
<<

Frankenstein

User avatar

Posts: 1531

Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Post Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:14 pm

Steph, Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. And thanks for the extra pictures Scott, they seem to back up what I was surmising. The 4 cyl points lobes are opening the points just before the rear of the magnet passes by the pole pieces. This means that they have let the magnets travel past the pole pieces for the near maximum time before opening the points and triggering the spark pulse. I'm not a mag expert, just applying what little electrical theory I know to the issue.
So when you grind those lobes, you should try to use a compromise lobe position, relative to the magnets, that lets the magnets travel past the pole pieces as much as possible before the lobe opens the points.
Very interesting stuff here, hope it works
Dr. Dick
<<

37ULH

Posts: 681

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 1:01 am

Location: somerset, oh usa

Post Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:13 pm

When timing you may have to stone your ramp for the rear cylinder so that it is timed correctly after the front cylinder timing has been established.
<<

d.rinner-okc

Posts: 27

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:05 pm

Location: Oklahoma City OK USA

Post Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:13 pm

So...what became of this project? Watched on both sites as bike unfolded.
Sprocket shaft scared me! Did it ever run again? Did you put some sort
of big-twin power in it?
I picked up a similar project last month, Aftermarket cases Alt L/H with
Generator R/h. It has a -70 sprocket shaft with a 64 & earlier tranny.
Primo 1-1/2" belt using a little more than 1/2 front pulley., & wearing
outside on clutch shell. All done now except waiting on new intake & carb.$$
old harley parts are MY 401K!
PreviousNext

Return to Morthodites-"Non Factory"

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007, 2012 phpBB Group.