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My Four Year Project

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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4719

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:59 am

Curt, Your comments are excellent. I agree with all you say. No doubt HD would try to dispute the use of their name on the bike if they felt an impossing threat. But ? I disagree on the name label based on one major fact. The label was purchased legally. He could have placed that label on his old ford pickup truck. Placing it on that truck doesn't mean it is an HD truck. I wear HD logo shirts. Wearing my legally purchased shirts doesn't make me an HD model. He could have placed them on a Honda or any other manufacturers bike. Bottom line is....he built a bike, regardless of whether or not it is replicated, and he placed a legally purchased emblem on it, the emblem does not make it an HD. There are a few Asian models out there on the roads now that can be mistaken for an HD model. Heck...they even sound pretty close to an HD model. If the owner of one of those models desides to place a legally purchased emblem on it, what is HD gonna do about it ? NOTHING !! I have HD mudflaps on my Sunbird. Pontiac isn't going to sue me. The horror stories you mentioned are true but many of these stories are copywrite infringments such as painting an HD logo on a barn wall or posting an HD logo at a shop where no offiliation with HD exists. Vendors at swapmeets advertize HD parts for sell. They are selling actual HD factory parts which they legally own. Can HD claim that the vendor cannot use their name in order to sell these parts ? They would like too but they can't. If given the legal muscle, they might attempt to make an issue on this beautiful Knucklehead replication. But they do not have a stake in this bike, not even on the emblems. Once a pon a time.....HD owned those emblems. At the time of sale, they gave up the ownership of those particuliar emblems. This gentlman cannot reproduce these emblems or manufacture his replication using more sets of those emblems for profit. without a licence granted from HD. His legal use of those emblems is fulfulled now. HD doesn't have a leg to stand on regarding this replication. The title will not make claim in any way shape or form to it's ressemblance of an HD. It is not an HD. Does it look like an HD ? Yep !! Do some other bikes look like HD models ? Yep !! Do some HD models look like non HD bikes ? Yep !! WAS the emblems HD at one time ? Yep !! Are they now ? NO !!! Did this bike get built with the intentions of making a profit from the HD name ? NO ! Case closed...says the courts. If those emblems, which were legally purchased, are restricted from placement, in any way, all HD logos, not mounted on HD vehicles, must be removed. This goes for Ford, Chevy, Chyrsler, etc., also. Pa
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Curt!

Posts: 903

Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Hill City, Ks. USA

Post Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:11 am

pa
You make a good argument. I can see a defense from your standpoint. You are right that most of the cease and desist orders are targeting people making some commercial use of a harley trademark, whether it's a bar and sheild, or simply the letters HD, as in the HD Cafe around here that had to change their name. They also had a orange and black sign. I thought that was really a stretch for copyright infringement. They had no connection to HD other than the owner rode one. This was years ago.
What I do know is that HDI is trying to put aftermarket suppliers of parts that fit Harley Davidsons out of business. Their attack on S&S, who has done lots of R&D for Harley over the years, is testament to the lengths the motor company will go to to stifle aftermarket manufacturers. I'm not sure how far they will persue this, but as sales of new bikes slow, and profits erode, I look for them to become more agressive in "protecting" their trademarks, pateents, and copyrights.
Curt!
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4719

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:00 pm

Sad but true Curt. They are trying to do just that. I chuckle when I drive by a couple of local dealerships in my tri state area when I can go into an official HD dealership and buy a brand new Honda if I don't want the lastest HD model. :wink: Pa
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Curt!

Posts: 903

Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Hill City, Ks. USA

Post Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:22 pm

pa
Interesting you would mention the Honda link. A HD dealer in SW Kansas decided to expand into another mid sized city in Western Kansas. He's been a dealer since at least the 60s. In addition to HD he also sells Honda and BMW. His plan was to sell Hondas and BMWs at the new location in addition to HDs. HD refused to give him the franchise in the new location unless he only sold HDs. Their policy now is to only sell and service bikes manufactured by Harley Davidson. He had the building up and parking lots paved and was ready to move in. He dropped the entire project because he couldn't sell all 3.
Curt!
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Markz

Posts: 81

Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2002 1:01 am

Location: Pompton Lakes NJ

Post Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:54 am

Zooming,
WOW! Seeing how beautiful your bike has turned out is just the kick in the ass I need to finish mine. Please update how the DMV and Insurance turn out for you. I will be facing the same thing in time.
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JIm

Posts: 801

Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Planet Earth

Post Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:06 pm

First off,

ZoomingM3 Great bike, good luck with the DMV.

As far as HD jumping on him, probably not. Although Pa makes some good arguments, if they wanted to they could haul someone into court and drag it out till either you just give up or go broke trying to fight them. The lawyers have time and money on their side and most individuals don't. There have been stories, I think some on this board and other places where there were claims made that HD reps and Lawyers were going around some of the larger events threatening people with law suits or some big fine if they did not remove the HD logos from their bikes. I am not sure if they are true or not but I know that HD can not fine you but a court could. But I would not put it past them trying it. Their argument would probably be that they did not make the bike and that you have no right to put their name on it. As far as the emblems, stickers and other do dads HD sells with their Logo on it, I have yet to see anything on or in the package that states how I can display it, what I can or can not do with it. They sell 41 to 46 tank emblems and list them as such but there is nothing that says I can only use them on a 41 to 46 HD with factory HD tanks. And their sales people will tell you they are tank emblems that you can put on your tanks. Does that let you off the hook? After all you bought them from an HD dealer and their sales person told you that you could put them on. And that goes for all the other replica parts they have there. I would tend to agree that HD is, well at this time, only interested in people that are trying to make money off of their name. But who knows what they will do next. I hear that they don't want anything to do with the old bikes but they sure as hell want them around when it is some type of anniversary or other special event.

Are HD people watching or surfing this site? Yes without a doubt. As far as their position with HD, who knows for sure.

Jim
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4719

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:43 am

Excellent points Jim, especially with the money/lawyer emphasis. An attack on this bike would bring bad PR To HD though. I suspect the stock holders would fringe at the thought of massive revenue losses over a long term legal battle, even if the money can't run out in one. Big money can keep a court battle going on for years as you say but in this case, a long term battle in the courts will lengthen the bad PR exposure also. What would the motor company say if he had a spare set of original tanks, also equiped with a set of those emblems, as a replacement for the repo tanks ? Will the new argument be that those tanks cannot be used on the repo bike ? We don't allow it !! :lol: Is not, what is good for the goose, also good for the gander ? :wink: Pa

Image
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JIm

Posts: 801

Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Planet Earth

Post Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:40 am

As long as there is no one big enough to challenge the Factory, I think they will just go on messing with people. But unlikely they will mess with a one of bike builder. Bad PR as you state Pa but it has to get out to be bad. If the Factory is getting to ridiculous with their demands and threats I would think that it would be in the best interest of the big guys, S&S, Custom Chrome, Drag, VTwin and others to get together and try suing HD as a group to stop it. One of the local independent shops near me had a word in his original name for over 20 years, HD decided they didn't like and he had to change it. I have also heard, unless they changed their attitude that independent shops could put up signage that said Parts for Harley Davidson Motorcycles but not Harley Davidson Motorcycle Parts. Even if you were selling real HD parts you could not use the latter. For years HD didn't really care all that much about it and is a one of the reasons they were been able to grow. More shops selling parts and working on HD bikes, more people ridding and buying those bikes. Some of them get older and a more financially stable and they go buy new HD's. Those new HD's and the older riders start to make it more respectable to own and ride HD's. Soon the outlaw associated with mystique ridding starts to fade a bit and more people get into it. Doctors, Lawyers, CEO's and more start ridding. HD is out of the red and growing. Then the Dot Com bubble starts and cable TV jumps on the band wagon and boom HD becomes huge and everyone wants a new HD or a clone. HD gets bigger and bigger. Now the HD image is respectable and they want nothing to do with the custom end of motorcycling which was a good part of their revenue for years. The bean counters figure they are loosing revenue the lawyers see a way for them to make money, and the lawyers are the ones that will make the most money. So the new people that probably have never ridden a bike let alone an HD that work there start to go after people. Well the Dot Com bubble burst, and people don't have as much money to spend on something that would be recreational for them, there are more bikes than ever on the floors of the dealers, so maybe it is headed the other way. Maybe some day HD will need the revenue from those people they didn't want anything to do with. I have been ridding HD's over 40 years (man I'm old) and will continue to until there is now way I can. And all I can say is, I wont forget how I have been treated at a few of the dealers, not all but some.

Sorry, long rambling rant over.

Plus the post has been hijacked by this subject.


Jim

AGAIN, AWSOME JOB ON THE BUILD ZOOMINGM3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4719

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:30 am

The discussion of concern has hi jacked the topic but the concern is legit. Let's hear more about the bikes details. A sound bite of the engine running would be cool. Has the oil been changed recently ? What did it look like, if it has ? Any filings found ? Pa
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ZoomingM3

Posts: 53

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:01 am

Location: Pennsylvania

Post Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:10 am

Pa,

I haven't changed the oil since I've only put 40 or so miles on the motor. I'll put something together regarding the details as for the sound bite, I wouldn't know where to start?

Thanks
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4719

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:57 pm

I don't know how to do the sound bites either. I think they need placed somewhere on the web and a link provided to it. JKE.....Didn't you do sound bites before ? Pa
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john k. endrizzi

User avatar

Posts: 726

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 1999 1:01 am

Location: nekoosa,wisconsin,usa

Post Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:51 pm

Pa,
Not much explanation other than
to say that you need a server. My site is it's own server so it is possible to post sound files there. I haven't done any sound. I would have to check with my web Guru as to how to go about it. I'm pretty sure that it is similair to the IMG tag used for posting images.
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ZoomingM3

Posts: 53

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:01 am

Location: Pennsylvania

Post Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:11 pm

Some of the parts used to construct the bike are as follows:

Frame: V-Twin (1941-46) Knucklehead [powder coated]
Motor: FHP 82” Top End & S&S Bottom End
Carburetor: S&S Super “E”
Intake Manifold: S&S
Air Cleaner: V-Twin Snoot
Oil Pump: S&S
Oil Filter Kit: V-Twin (1940-47)
Oil Tank: V-Twin
Exhaust: V-Twin [Ceramic Coated]
Electrical System: 12V
Distributor: FHP
Ignition: Crane Hi-4 Dual Fire
Coil: Crane Dual Fire
Generator: Cycle Electric (built-in regulator)
Wiring: V-Twin Cotton Braided
Battery: Great Plains Cycle – Sealed Gel
Transmission: V-Twin 4 Speed Hand Shift Jockey (1936-64)
Primary Drive: Primo 1-1/2” Belt
Clutch: Rivera Pro Clutch
Tin Primary Covers: V-Twin [powder coated]
Front Fender: V-Twin BT Replica (1936-48)
Rear Fender: V-Twin BT (1936-38)
Tanks: V-Twin 3.5 Gal (1936-39)
Fuel Lines: V-Twin
Fuel Filter: V-Twin (1932-38)
Rims: V-Twin 18” [powder coated]
Spokes: V-Twin (Stainless Steel)
Hubs: V-Twin (1936-40) Black
Tires: Coker 4.00 x 18” Diamond Tread
Drum Brakes: V-Twin
Forks: V-Twin Springer (inline)
Handlebars: V-Twin
Seat: Corbin-Gentry Standard Solo (1925)
Hardware: V-Twin (Colony) Parkerized

Suppliers used to purchase parts, services and materials:

Flathead Power
J&P (V-Twin & S&S)
Wino’s Custom Cycles (V-Twin)
Old Dude Vintage Parts
BigCity Thunder
Great Plains Cycle
Antique Cycle Supply
The Eastwood Company
McMaster Carr
Jet-Hot Coatings
Advanced Products & Services (powder coating)
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JohnR

Posts: 146

Joined: Sat Nov 13, 1999 1:01 am

Location: Utah,USA

Post Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:55 pm

I have a Harley logo on my snow blower???
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Californian

Posts: 13

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:57 am

Location: Daly City CA U.S.A.

Post Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:22 am

Rear Fender: V-Twin BT (1936-38)

Hey Zoom, I really like that Knuckle you have built, reminded me of a two tone 61 Knuckle a friend built many years ago which the colors were similar..Great job on your bike... 8)

What caught my eye was the rear fender which I had a question about,you posted that it came from V-Twin..Did or is the hinged rear section with the pigs snout covering the tail light come from V-Twin also, as I could not find it in the on line v-twin catolog....

Thanks,

Tom (06)
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ZoomingM3

Posts: 53

Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 1:01 am

Location: Pennsylvania

Post Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:57 am

Californian,

Thanks for the complement. As for the rear fender, I purchased the complete fender from V-Twin. The V-Twin P/N is 50-0180 (OEM # 3711-36) 1936-38 Big Twin. I don’t have an updated V-Twin catalog but in the catalog I do have (2002) the fender is shown under Rigid Rear Fenders. I hope this information helps.
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Californian

Posts: 13

Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:57 am

Location: Daly City CA U.S.A.

Post Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:38 pm

ZoomingM3

Thanks for the P/N 50-0180, I went to the on line catolog and used it and on a part search it came up as a discontinued Item and refered to 50-0156 without the pigs snout as the update.

These have always been rare as that style tail gate goes back to the VL rear fender around 1933 or earlier I belive, and they work best with the old style bullet tail light with the round cylinder glass for the license plate light. I think early K models used this type tail light set up also but without the fender shroud covering it.

Thanks again for the info, I will do a little more reaserch..

Tom (06)
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Chris Haynes

Posts: 2631

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 12:01 am

Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:53 am

The "Pig Snout" cover and the complete tail lamp are reproduced by Bud Hopkins. I don't have his info handy but he is listed in the AMCA Directory
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Jan Willem

Posts: 74

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:01 am

Location: Ruinen, Drenthe, Nederland

Post Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:26 am

I think you are forgetting something.
It used to be that a motorcycle had to have the (makers) name on each side of the tank.
So, I think you could put the Harley-Davidson name anywhere you want to put it, except on the tanks. By putting it on the tanks, you are saying this is a Harley-Davidson.

Jan Willem
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Skip

User avatar

Posts: 32

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:34 am

Location: WV

Post Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:19 am

So will the "Company" cut off....

both my arms...I have the HD logo on both...along with a Panhead motor...I think they can fight...don't think they can win....Skip
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