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69 GE Pinion just not spin clutch shell

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56Trike

Posts: 123

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:01 am

Location: Reno,NV USA

Post Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:38 pm

69 GE Pinion just not spin clutch shell

Putting E start on 69 45" trike. Rebuilt starter motor and so it is good. Wired it up on tranny with clutch and all parts. Have it sitting on a stand all wired up. Every thing engages and spins, plenty of battery. Watching the Pinion gear, when it engages clutch ring, the pinion does not trun clutch ring. Got a new one and it is doing the same thing, not spinning the clutch ring. What am I not doing????
Thanks BFH
RJ
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hotrods1

Posts: 228

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Burlington Iowa USA

Post Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:55 pm

I bet when you reuilt the starter you got the brushes in the wrong spot on the holder. It will make the starter turn backwards.
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Buster

Posts: 250

Joined: Tue Oct 05, 1999 12:01 am

Post Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:04 pm

I bought a new aftermarket starter motor for my shovel about 10 years ago which ran backwards and would not turn clutch basket. I believe the starter motor can be wired wrong.
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4758

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:20 pm

First...make sure your tranny is in neutral when you are trying to run it. If it was in neutral try the following checks. Remove the soleniod from the starter gear shift lever and try to manually engage the pinion gear with the ring gear. You will be checking for alignment been the two gears by doing this. If they do not mesh you may be in need of added cover gaskets to lift the top up a bit higher. If they do mesh, the trouble may be with the solenoid or the solenoid to shift lever connection. Check the slot where the solenoid plunger shaft pins to the shifter lever. This will be the pusher pin. There are three pins in a solenoid assembly. Make sure the pin is turned in a vertical position when solenoid plunger shaft is attached to the shifter lever slot, especially when installing the solenoid plunger spring, retainer, and outer end retainer pin. Also make certain all solenoid components are assembled in the correct order. Check for ease of sliding of the pinion gear on the main starter shaft. Never use a lubricant on the main starter shaft or its' components. Check for free swinging of the shifter lever on the pivot bolt. If none of these suggestions help you out, email me direct and I will try to pin point the problem for you. A wrong direction turning starter motor could be a problem also. Pa
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Pa

Site Admin

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Location: Ohio USA

Post Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:32 pm

You can disregard most of what I already posted. I didn't realize the pinion was meshing already. If it meshes to tightly it will bind the starter components and force the starter motor to work harder while trying to turn all of the components. Just be certain you can rotate the clutch basket by hand before you tear the motor apart. When looking straight in at the pinion face from the clutch basket side of the tranny, the pinion should rotate clockwise so it can turn the clutch basket counter clockwise. Pa
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56Trike

Posts: 123

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:01 am

Location: Reno,NV USA

Post Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:50 pm

Thanks hotrods1
You hit it on the head. When I rebuilt the starter it had no brushes or springs. So I mounted the brushes clockwise and they needed to be counterclockwise. Don't understand them ELEC theories to good.


Respectflly
RJ

Hey PA been watching your special build for that URN, wish I had some parts. Do believe you are doing a GREAT thing with that.
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4758

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:54 pm

Hey hotrods 1 and Buster....you guys need a job doing e start assembly work ? :wink:

Thanks RJ. If it wasn't for the rest of the participants. the task would take forever in materializing. Pa
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56Trike

Posts: 123

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:01 am

Location: Reno,NV USA

Post Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:01 pm

How is the repo E start project coming along. After all I went through to assemble this used one it would be nice to have a source for parts. Are you going to do 64-65 and 66-73?
RJ
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4758

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:16 am

Got hundreds of interested people but cash is their deterent. They don't seem to realize how much money they will tie up in a oem worn out system before they actually have a working and reliable one. Kat plans a full blown advertising promotional this spring so the word can be gotten out in higher volume, that the assembles and parts are now available. Her primary phocus is on the 66-73 systems for now but she does plan to offer the difficult to find and usually over priced components that normally wear out in the 64-65 systems. There are no plans to duplicate the castings but who knows...only time will tell. Engineers are already working on the machining details for the pinion gear. Her pattern maker is shaping the casting pattern for the solo model system at present. This system will utilize the more reliable 66-73 system and it will fit between the down tube and fender nicely. Complete systems and parts for the 66-73 Servi-Car models are available now. At present, complete systems are built on an order by order basis. Initially there was a couple of gremlins in the first 6 units which have now been addressed. Some side cover holes were miss located and the ring gear clearance was overlooked. I hope to post some pics soon of the first 1965 Servi-Car which is now using Kats' 66-73 system. These folks could not locate a pinion gear for it for several years and they kept welding the old one up until it became nothing but a big pain in the arse failing them at the most inconvienent times. They are really pleased with the results they have had with the new system and how it starts their scooter every single time. Pa
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56Trike

Posts: 123

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:01 am

Location: Reno,NV USA

Post Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:10 am

PA thanks for the update, will watch for the web site update. Used to do sand castings and thought of reproducing the topcasting and realized that 100,000.oo would maybe set up the system from scratch. So yes capitol is a problem in any endeavor. As the parts would not fly off the shelf, would still have to keep my day job. HA.
RJ
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BREWSKI

Posts: 919

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:01 am

Location: RENO,NV. U.S.A.

Post Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:20 pm

PA,just a thought,but H-D only made about 700 SERVI-CARS a year up until the end of production. Of two years,surviving the chopper era,how many do you think are left?? I talked to a few people about the early starters,said they used to use their fingers(OUCH!) to push the bendix back while the engine was running. I'm already missing enough body parts. BREWSKI
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4758

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:46 pm

Brewski...they made plenty more of them from 1941 up to 73, not to mention the over 100 plus thousand Solos. These systems are built for easy conversion of the kick start only Servi-Car models and will allow an owner to quickly return his bike to original specs if he so wishes too. Those who own earlier model Servi-Cars with 6 volt systems do have to convert them to 12 volt but again...it still allows them to return to the 6 volt system if desired. Of course they need to keep a hold of all their original parts in order to revert back. The e start is mainly for those who can no longer kick a bike over. Even the 45" can be quite a task for the elderly or mamed. For the bobber person who is used to a button start and wants the look of an early bike, it fits right in for him also. For the 64-65 Servi-Car model owner, it is a refreshing reliable change for them from their existing unreliable early e start system. By the way.....HD made a fix for the sticking pinion in late 65 due to that irritating and sometimes dangerous problem but it wasn't a very good one. It consisted of a spring steel bent wire, screw, and a drill bit, for installation of it but the operator still had to manually push on the spring steel wire to help operate the pinion. This only kept his fingers out of the way. It made for a mickey mouse fix though, so HD came out with the 66-73 system which permanately fixed the early systems short falls. Sales will really take off for the system as soon as the Solo model is completed. Inquires on it have been super heavy. The original 66-73 Servi-Car models are well sought after now and most of them are in need of a total starter system rebuild. Now they have a source for those components. They have a source for the complete units also. Pa
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56Trike

Posts: 123

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:01 am

Location: Reno,NV USA

Post Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:48 pm

Okay PA, I believe there is a market for the parts. What I noticed different on my 56 tranny and the 69 tranny is that in the tranny lid there is a locating dowel. Didn't measure the dowels OD for future use.

So my question is could you just redrill the bolt hole for the correct ID of the dowel?That way if you are used to the shift pattern you can keep it right.

Going to fire the system installed in the sacred cow tomorrow and see how she runs. Will be akward shifting in the opposite direction.
RJ
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4758

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Location: Ohio USA

Post Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:19 am

I am not sure if I understand your question correctly but I will try and answer it per my understanding. Most of the e start trannies I have been working with have had two dowels in them. Earlier tranny cases had none. The dowels actually took the place of the original top cover screws in a kick start only tranns. My guess is HD used the locating dowels as an insurance that the top would not shift around and loosen up during the many crankings the e start would perform. I believe there is some merit to this idea but there is also a downfall to it also. There is quite a bit of uplifting forces create by the starter components during operation which tend to push the top up and away from the tranny case. If you notice, many of the oem e start tops, both early and late styles, available for sell, have broken hold down ears or cracks around some of the thinner weaker points for mounting. Did removing the tapped holes in the cases and installing the dowels for locators help to faciliate this damage by lessoning the holding strength on the top cover ? Broken tops have been discussed on this forum before and I pointed out how poorly tuned engines and incorrect timing were the main causes of this type of failure. So....my suggestion to you is, if you want to keep the case original, use only screws with a spacer to fill the extra space around the dowel hole in the top cover. The countersunk holes in the lid with do the locating for you. I am not sure what you mean by your shifting pattern. The top cover does not affect the shifting patterns. There is no linkage or shifting components attached to the cover. The type of shifter cam drum and the timing of the shifter shaft shifter gear determine your shifting patterns and they are affixed to the tranny case. Hope this helped. Pa
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4758

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Post Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:20 am

I should have added.........use the support braces on the starter motor. They really do help keep the top on and in position. Pa
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56Trike

Posts: 123

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:01 am

Location: Reno,NV USA

Post Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:11 am

Thanks PA.
in wanting to use the 56 tranny which shifts R @ Top 1 N 2 3. The 69 tranny is 3 @ top 2 N 1 R. I have no experience with the 64 -65 trannys, I have seen a lot that had broken mounting areas. I ran the 69 tranny on my scoot today and all the starter components work grand. Just need to adjust 2nd gear a little.

" So....my suggestion to you is, if you want to keep the case original, use only screws with a spacer to fill the extra space around the dowel hole in the top cover. "

On my 69 tranny top the dowel is a blind dowel. So if one was to use it on a earlier model tranny. Then one would have to remove the dowel and drill for 12-24 screw and counter sink it.
Thanks for the input
RJ
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4758

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:18 pm

Some would leave it blank and empty too. Pa
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56Trike

Posts: 123

Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:01 am

Location: Reno,NV USA

Post Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:40 pm

Thanks PA, I got it.
I was wrong about the dowel being blind, had to take the tranny apart and scraped off the paint , sure enuf there was the dowel. Was missing the Low & 2nd gear end play washer. So now shifts like it should.
Happy riding

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