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Exhaust formula (long)

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panic

Post Fri Oct 11, 2002 4:47 pm

Exhaust formula (long)

I've come to a dead end. Let me begin with the assumption that some people here are familiar with "tri-y" (a.k.a. 4-2-1) headers? I'm trying to figure out:
1. a reliable formula for determining pipe lengths, both absolute and proportionate (primary/secondary)
2. a reliable formula for determining relative diameter of secondaries (other than the "classic 20%" rule)
3. any reason why this should not work on 2 cylinder motors
Before you answer, yes, I've already read A. G. Bell and D. Vizard without finding an answer in either.
Any comments, links to good site, etc. most welcome as always.
Thanks.

------------------
Want stroker flywheels for your H-D 45? Click here.
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HOOTER

Posts: 1319

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 1:01 am

Location: State College, Pa.

Post Sat Oct 12, 2002 4:42 am

Damn, I had a whole page written up, and then lost connection. Rats!

Check out:

Scientific Design of Exhaust & Intake systems
by Philip H Smith and John C Morrison

I always thought that the formulas from Bell's book were pretty straight forward. Used them for lots of engine planning on numerous 2 into 1 nad single pipe systems.

HOOT
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panic

Post Sat Oct 12, 2002 1:30 pm

Bell's reference to 15" as the minimum for primary length is mystifying - Vizard has used lengths down to 8" on Mini motors. Bell's formula for secondary diameter (IDS = 93%*((ID2^2*2)^.5)produces a pipe much larger than is commonly used. I have a feeling it's a typo - that it's his formula for the collector of a 4-1 pipe, not 2-1, in fact it returns a secondary diameter larger than his collector formula. It also gives a figure for the center pipe of an LCB much larger than any made. Do you have a figure from your edition for secondary pipe size?


[This message has been edited by panic (edited 12 October 2002).]
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Boogiemanz1

Posts: 896

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Bixby,OK, USA

Post Sat Oct 12, 2002 3:48 pm

On of the most efficient systems for later model stuff claims to use an exhaust pressure wave analysis to determine the length of the primaries. this dismisses the wave into a collector or past a reversion dam prior to the negative pressure/piston dropping at overlap occurs.
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dotman

Posts: 582

Joined: Fri Oct 01, 1999 12:01 am

Location: meridian, id. usa

Post Sat Oct 12, 2002 5:08 pm

I just had this vision of you guys setting around an old pot belly stove in your "FLATHEADS RULE" blasers drinking corn squizzens out of a mason jar deliberateing on the virtues of the proper leanght of steel tubing. Image
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panic

Post Sat Oct 12, 2002 5:12 pm

My blazer says "Free Silver 16-1", if you go back that far...
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m/cgeezer1945

Posts: 376

Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Lebanon, CT USA

Post Sat Oct 12, 2002 7:43 pm

Hey dotman...I like the Flatheads Rule blazer thing...Maybe in a Tee shirt that looks like a blazer...Geezer
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Frankenstein

User avatar

Posts: 1550

Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Post Sat Oct 12, 2002 8:51 pm

Hey Panic, William Jennings Bryan "Cross of gold"??
F
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HOOTER

Posts: 1319

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 1:01 am

Location: State College, Pa.

Post Sat Oct 12, 2002 9:49 pm

I have an August 1983 Bell's

P. 112 has the primary pipe length:

P = ([850xED]/rpm) -3

Then you can work on the ID of the primary pipe. after that work out the secondary pipe formula. Secondary length is P + 3

ED =180 degrees plus the number of degrees the exhaust valve opens before BDC

Now here's the stickler. I haven't found a reference as to what lift the valve opening measurement is at. (.015, .020, .053)?

Working with his book makes me believe that his valve opening measurements are taken at the low range.

HOOT
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panic

Post Sun Oct 13, 2002 12:36 am

Winner! Bryan it is.
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panic

Post Sun Oct 13, 2002 12:40 am

Agree - may be at .00" or lash for duration. I have the same formula, but where does secondary = P+3 appear? Mine says after you get the total length, subtract primary, and P2 is remainder. Does yours have the 93% reference for secondary diameter (bottom of p.113)?
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HOOTER

Posts: 1319

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 1:01 am

Location: State College, Pa.

Post Mon Oct 14, 2002 5:27 am

Panic

All those diagrams show P+3" on pages 112,113
Primary length = P
P1 + P2 = P. That's used on the 4-2-1 system.

page 115 P2 = P - P1. If P = 36" and P1 = 15" then P2 would = 21"

You'll need a four cylinder engine to utilze the 4-2-1 sytem.

HOOT
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panic

Post Mon Oct 14, 2002 1:24 pm

I think the "93%" is a mistake; it's either:
a. that's the formula for the collector diameter of all 4 pipes, or
b. it's a typo, and the correct percentage is 63 or 73.
93 returns a figure much bigger than anyone else's ideas.
<<

HOOTER

Posts: 1319

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 1:01 am

Location: State College, Pa.

Post Tue Oct 15, 2002 4:53 am

Read your '93%' as 9396. I was going HUH? Then I realized my eyes were fooling me.

Nothing wrong with the 93 %, if you plug 63% into the formula you would get a secondary that was smaller than the primary (bottleneck). Remember, the secondary takes the volume of both primaries.

Who elses ideas?

I built a 2-1 system for my Rat Shovel, 74", A grind. 2" intake valves and used 1 5/8" exhaust pipes (to fool the engine into thinking it had 1 5/8" exhaust valves). Used Bell's formulas. Worked extremely well, straight thru system, no muffler, and it was quiet compared to straight pipes.

HOOT
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Boogiemanz1

Posts: 896

Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Bixby,OK, USA

Post Tue Oct 15, 2002 6:10 am

Out here in the `bojacks we up the size of the primary 1/8 over the exhaust valve size, build a nice system with equal length primaries and a long collector made of a roll of stovepipe (very thin). Paint the collector with cheap paint, go out and run the hell out of it for half a day, then cut the collector off at the point where the paint stopped burning......or push a valve spring into the pipe a little at a time until it runs the best....sho do...jb

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