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First time Start, too HOT?

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Brendan

Posts: 84

Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:59 pm

Location: Orlando

Post Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:25 pm

First time Start, too HOT?

After 5 years, I finally finished assembly and wiring of my WLA restoration. I kick started it for the first time today. I expected I would have to adjust the idle and advance a little but I shut it down because the pipes ran too hot. I admit, I was a little nervous when it came to life. I wish I had hands on experience with the sweet spots regarding the 45 adjustments but this is the first one I ever started and I have nothing to compare it to except a YouTube video. No fluid leaks except a little dribble of gas from the carburetor around the low speed idle adjust at the base of the spring. HMMM? It could have been because I was moving it back and forth so much. I tried to post a picture but I am doing something wrong or dont have permission.
[img]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4654013365219&set=a.3007425681556.1073741826.1739872150&type=1/img]
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4718

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:47 am

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

Email me the pic Brendan. I will put it up for you. Pa
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Brendan

Posts: 84

Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:59 pm

Location: Orlando

Post Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

I read a bunch of posts and came across a couple from Cotton about an air leak. I put the choke on and lifted it one notch and the bike idled pretty good as soon as i moved the choke into the run position it would cut out. I have a video. It puked oil out the bottom since it sat overnight. I guess my oil pump is still leaking into the crank case. Anyway, I read a post form Pa about a tooth being off on one of the crank gears, I will post a pic so the experts can see how I set it up.
God I want to ride this.
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woody

Posts: 491

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Wa, USA

Post Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:20 pm

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

I will save Cotten from sounding like a broken record. If you have not pressure checked your manifold you should before you go any further. If you have the brass seal rings you almost certainly have an intake leak. PEEK seals are the only way to go. Many members of this forum make them and they are worth the price.
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knucklebolt

Posts: 222

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:52 pm

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

I'm just wondering...how hot is too hot? I saw my knucklehead's pipes glow red a couple of times when it was really dark, and I'd just started it up. If I recall correctly, seems like they cooled down after I opened the choke all the way...which sounds backwards.

Anyhow, are they glowing red?

If not, how do you know they are too hot? The first time you fire up a project bike, or a new/rebuilt engine, the outside of the pipes, and much of the engine are going to smoke quite a bit, no matter how clean they are. The UL smoked like a camp fire the first time I fired up my UL, and the cylinders and pipes were still smoking quite a bit through the next four or five heat cycles.

Sounds like maybe your float is a bit too high? Possible?

On the wet sumping...my UL was doing that. I didn't think the check ball spring was putting any pressure on the ball...so I stretched it a bit and no more wet sumping. I don't suggest spring-stretching, but I would somehow ensure that the spring is not too short. No matter how good it is, and within specs otherwise, if it's not touching the ball it's not going to work. ??? Just my experience.

Just curious as to what you mean by too hot, and can't help thinking that you were alarmed by all the smoke coming off them. But that would be very normal for the first start up.

ken.
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ohio-rider

Posts: 232

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:26 am

Location: Ohio

Post Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:27 am

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

Some smoke is to be expected on the first start up. The most important thing for you to look for is that oil is returning to the tank. I also like to be certain that the carb is set heavily towards the rich side for the first couple minutes. Once you hear the valves beginning to seat then you can lean the carb out a bit but leave it towards the heavy side for the first fifty miles. Here is a video of my startup after a rebuild and as you can see, after about a minute of running it smokes pretty good but then settles down. If you listen close you can hear the valves begin to seat in. Oh yeah, skip the first 2 minutes, it took me that long to realize that I needed to advance my timer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq1s0MQtVvA
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4718

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

ohio-rider wrote:Some smoke is to be expected on the first start up. The most important thing for you to look for is that oil is returning to the tank. I also like to be certain that the carb is set heavily towards the rich side for the first couple minutes. Once you hear the valves beginning to seat then you can lean the carb out a bit but leave it towards the heavy side for the first fifty miles. Here is a video of my startup after a rebuild and as you can see, after about a minute of running it smokes pretty good but then settles down. If you listen close you can hear the valves begin to seat in. Oh yeah, skip the first 2 minutes, it took me that long to realize that I needed to advance my timer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq1s0MQtVvA


Man ! I never get tired of that video Steve.
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Brendan

Posts: 84

Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:59 pm

Location: Orlando

Post Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:01 pm

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

WHEW.. I am one nervous father!!! I filled with gas and (1 1/8 gallons of oil)?????. I kicked it 5 times not expecting it to start, But it did, WIDE OPEN. I thought I was being shot at. My heart was racing, the motor was racing, and my mind could not find the off switch. I was pressing the damn horn button out of habit because that’s where the off switch is on my yz250 two stroke. Like I said, I didn’t expect it to start.
Anyway, I checked the pressure as Cotton prescribed using a Rubber paint cork, a basketball needle and regulated air-line. Leak found on the front cylinder junction to manifold. I tightened it and no more leak. I put the carb back on, started it again and adjusted the air screw to get it to idle. Oil is pumping at 5.8 pounds. The gas is not dripping anymore. I think it was blowing back through the carb when running with the air leak.
I started it again and it puked a quart of oil on the floor. Pipes did not get as hot this time while idling for 3 minutes. I will try stretching the spring.

I still have the pressure gauge attached for diagnostic purposes.
The TM says (one and one eighth gallons) of oil? Then I read 7.5 quarts.
Too much oil? Leak through the vent?

I am trying to get it to idle with the throttle disc fully closed but I will work the pump first.

ALL thanks for the advice. It took 5 years on and off to build. Now I have to learn how to ride it with all the controls misplaced.

P.S.
How much play in the throttle GRIP should I expect? I have around ¼ inch.
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37ULH

Posts: 687

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 1:01 am

Location: somerset, oh usa

Post Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:50 pm

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

The washer under the spring of your "air screw" is your air bleed for the idle circuit. Preset and non adjustable.
That screw (marked idle) controls fuel flow, not air.
The "speed" screw also controls fuel flow. Cw nets less fuel, ccw nets more.
That engine will not run at any mixture setting with the throttle butterfly fully closed. The idle speed adjustment screw must hold it open slightly.
It would not be uncommon for a little gas to come out at that washer under the idle mixture screw during the starting process especially if the choke is closed.
Unhook your return line with oil in the tank and see if it leaks out. The problem doesn't have to be the pump although a bunch of the troublesome ones that had been shelved are now back in service.
I don't condone stretching any oil pump springs unless it's only for a test and you have a new one on the shelf to replace it with after you've ruined the one you just modified.
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Cotten

User avatar

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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 1999 12:01 am

Location: Central Illinois, USA

Post Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:36 am

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

Technically, 37ULH,

The idle needle meters air after the venturi kicks in, and the entire idle circuit reverses itself. Thus a 'rich' idle setting allows more air to the nozzle well at high speeds, and a 'lean' setting is richer.

....Cotten
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Brendan

Posts: 84

Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:59 pm

Location: Orlando

Post Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:24 pm

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

Thanks 37ULH, Cotton

The carb is barley open with a nice idle. Thought it had to be closed for correct base adjustment. I will move from the factory settings, on the speed screw and idle screw, when I see how it reacts at high speed.

Pa, The next test is the transmission I rebuilt, with the help of your posts, back in 2009 2010. Fingers crossed.



Thanks again.

Is 1 and 1/8 gallos of oil to much Or is 7.5 qts correct?
Is 1/4 inch play in the throttle and advance controls normal for WlA ?

Brendan
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4718

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:20 pm

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

Your tranny will be ok Brendan. I've rebuilt several 45 transmissions and they are all operating excellently. Following specifications insured they worked correctly. On the oil capacity issue, I have a book which states the capacity but will need to look it up tomorrow. Me brain don't store information long anymore. Thus the need to document such as the trans build topic. ;) I used that book capacity when I filled my oil tank and it covers the dip stick just below the dipstick tube in the tank.
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knucklebolt

Posts: 222

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:14 am

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

Relax...sounds like everything is going good. 45's are pretty bullet proof. I still want to know if your pipes ever glowed red, or if they were just smoking. !!!??? Or are you measuring the actual temperature somehow? C'mon, fess up!!

Yes...spring stretching is not a good pastime, the point is, somehow make sure the spring is actually putting it's full pressure on the ball, and not just "floating" in the chamber where the spring resides. Worked for me.

Glad it's going good, your "bugs" are very minor. I sure enjoyed my 45 until some dirt bag stole it. It sure was absolutely reliable.

k.
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Brendan

Posts: 84

Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:59 pm

Location: Orlando

Post Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:54 pm

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

The pipes initially glowed just at the top, but it was only on the first time starting it. I thought I had oil in the crank case but I had drained it 2 years earlier. so what i did was start the damn thing dry or not primed.
I didn't stretch the spring. I just checked both check ball springs and they are the correct length and strength.
I have another pump body coming, The seat has a small pit
Whoever stole your bike is much more than a dirt bag. I hope you find it.

Thanks k

brendan
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knucklebolt

Posts: 222

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:43 pm

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

Well okay...that is TOO hot! My guess would be that the carb ran a little too lean when it did that? Or not. The two times I say my knuck's pipes glow, I'm pretty sure it was a carb/mixture issue. They too just glowed for a couple of inches after the port. And had it not been really dark, I never would have noticed.

Sure doesn't seem to take much to cause a wet sump. !

I think my 45 is pretty long gone. That was around 1977-1978. I had a frame made that took my 45 engine, and a big twin four speed. The dirt bags probably thought it was a ULH until they got it home.

k.
Last edited by knucklebolt on Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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knucklebolt

Posts: 222

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:52 pm

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

There she is...only surviving pic of my 45, possibly the first 4-speed 45?

k.
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4718

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:53 pm

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

Not to be off topic but that reply really caught my interest.Possibly the very first 4 speed 45 ? That is impressive. How did you do the 4 speed gear box and what differences are there between the now offered 4 speed 45 gearboxes on the market verses the one you built ? Just very curious.
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knucklebolt

Posts: 222

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:47 pm

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

I just used a early big twin gear box, I don't remember what year exactly it was, and probably didn't know at the time. A friend of mine was just getting into building frames, so he made me a double down tube rigid frame. The rake was set to let the bike sit level with my long springer on it...so I don't know how many degrees it had. You can see in the picture that the tube that runs from the backbone to the down tubes hadn't been welded in yet. It seemed to work without it but then we decided better be safe and not sorry.

Then we got the rear wheel mounted up, put the rear chain on and lined up the sprockets/tranny by eye. !!! Then mounted the tranny up, pretty much like stock.

Then we mounted the engine using square tube for motor mounts, lined the engine up with the clutch, just by eye again, and then drilled the mounts and bolted the engine down. And that's about it....but that's all I know. I had a panhead, or splined motor sprocket made into one with the tapered hole, but later it seems that I had just duplicated a knucklehead/flathead motor sprocket. ?

The bike, wet, weighed in at exactly 490 pounds.

At the time, most people said it "couldn't" be done, and some said that sure you could do that, but that it would "never" pull fourth gear. !?!?!?!!?! It pulled fourth just fine. I don't remember how many teeth the motor sprocket had, or the trans sprocket either. I do remember that I loved the bike, ran fine, tracked fine, handled fine, pulled hills in fourth just fine...I enjoyed it much more than when it was in the stock frame with the three speed....although now I would not/ever hack up a stock 45 to do that.

Ken
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4718

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:34 am

Re: First time Start, too HOT?

Sorry it took so long to get back to you on the oil capacity Brendan. I plum forgot about it. The capacity is in TM 9-879 which is Technical Manual, Motorcycle, Solo, (Harley Davidson Model WLA), dated October 18, 1943. On page 32, number (8) under "Tank, Engine Oil", it says 1 U.S. gallon fills an empty tank. Level of oil in tank should be within 1" of the top. When oil level on dip stick is down to "Refill" mark on gage rod, 2 U.S. quarts may be added. The paragraph also says to drain oil and change every 1,000 miles. In winter change more often.

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