Board index Flathead Power-Technical Questions, Answers, and Suggestions 45 Flatties Dual cam front brake

Dual cam front brake

Moderators: Curt!, Pa

Post Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:31 pm

Posts: 31
Location: South Norway
Gentlemen, as some might know there is two different makers of dual cam front brake assys for springers. I have the "not so god" style on my 45" bob job. Now when building another bike I will of course play with the god one (see this link for difference; http://rigidhips.blogspot.com/2011/03/d ... brake.html ).

The god one is supposedly sold by 45parts depot which seems impossible to get hold off (why did Kurts reply to me in a previous tread dissapear in a few days after posted??) I would desperately like to know if anyone know another source to buy from, HELP, I need one now!

Any help would be truly apprechiated (would neither not mind to know why KURT`s reply dissapeared).

btw, tried calling Flatland motorcycle in Warren Ohio, number no longer in use. Any other number to try?

Sverre
http://AmericanMotorcyclesNorway.blogspot.com
AMCA 3489

Post Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:57 pm
Pa Site Admin

Posts: 5673
Location: Ohio USA

Kurt left Warren, Ohio. He is now in Arizona. His new website is to launch soon. Kurt posted his website problems in another topic. Pa

Post Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:16 am

Posts: 426
Location: Tucson Arizona

Sverre,

Shoot me another e-mail: kurt@45partsdepot.com

I have a used dual cam brake....black....it was on one of my show bike and has less than 100 miles on it if you're interested.

Kurt

Post Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:52 pm

Posts: 72
Location: South Australia
I hope the comments on the other web site, they mean the dual brake on the left is the not so good one, as i purchased a daul brake set up last October from 45 Parts depot which was the same as the one on the right, with 2 pivot points and 2 fixed points for the shoes, i have not finished my project bike yet to try it.
" The more I learn the less I know"

Post Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:25 pm

Posts: 426
Location: Tucson Arizona

The brake on the right is the newest design and I've never heard anyone complain about it's function.

I'll repeat myself because this hasn't been said in years. The Dual Cam brake could have been made to work comparatively well against a disc brake and in fact there was a prototype that came close, however......this is stupid (my opinion) and I've been saying this for years; an original Springer fork left leg will fatigue with a brake that works. They even bend with an original brake......and.......all the stopping force for the entire front brake, bike and you, is dependent on a single 1/2" rocker stud. The brake is much better than the OEM and is still safe to use.

I know people add big banana caliper and 4 and 6 piston disc brakes to an oem Springer........sorry.......I don't need to be part of a law suit, so we played it safe.

Kurt

Post Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:29 pm

Posts: 72
Location: South Australia
Thanks Kurt, puts my mind at rest, to have the best, and yes you are correct, the ol springer will bend if fitted with a real brake . Im looking forward to when you get back on line,
Regards Rod :lol:
" The more I learn the less I know"

Post Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:08 am

Posts: 140
Location: USA
Anybody tried to utilize some of the factory rear hydraulic drum brake parts such as the actuating cylinder to fabricate a front hydraulic drum brake,on the surface it seems like like a feasible project worth looking into. :D :D

Post Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:36 pm

Posts: 176
Location: Carmarthen, Wales, UK
celticdodge wrote:
Anybody tried to utilize some of the factory rear hydraulic drum brake parts such as the actuating cylinder to fabricate a front hydraulic drum brake,on the surface it seems like like a feasible project worth looking into. :D :D



It may well be; I considered it but others counselled me as to the fork's inherent weakness as detailed by Kurt above. So I left it be and you know what? If you ride the WLC like a 70 year old motorcycle the brakes ain't half bad, it's only when you try and pitch it against modern stuff on their terms that it falls short.
72 Ironhead, goes better than it stops!

42(?)WLC

79FLH

2005 XL1200R.... well ya gotta have a rat-bike!

Post Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:56 am

Posts: 1634
I can't agree with that last statement. Compared to the brakes on contemporary European machines, the brakes on a WL are pretty shocking.

It was well known at the time that leading-link forks of that type suffer various deficiencies on the braking department; the "Castle" forks made under licence in the 1920s - basically licenced copies of the then-current H-D pattern - were fitted with brake drums which were small even by the standards of the day, for that reason. Ask a Brough Superior or Coventry Eagle owner.

Of course, this didn't matter in the days when roads were frequently cobbled, surfaced with wood blocks, unpaved, or not paved to modern standards if so; tyres were what they were and a stable ride was the main requirement. But the general paving or tarmacking of the nations' roads in the late 20s and early 30s combined with the development of the lighter, stronger girder fork pattern meant the end for the Castle fork
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...

Post Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:49 am

Posts: 176
Location: Carmarthen, Wales, UK
I can only speak as I find. I would say, having owned both a WLA and a WLC, that the front brake is considerably better on the latter bike, as you'd expect. Having also owned a brace of Triumph 3TA's, much lighter and twenty years down the development line, I'd also say that WL brakes weren't the worst, even though they were far from the best; as most of us know, optimum retardation is achiieved by using the back brake more than the front which is counter-intuitive to most riders of non-American machinery. Front brake on that Triumph wouldn't stop a clock and the back one was like a light switch!
72 Ironhead, goes better than it stops!

42(?)WLC

79FLH

2005 XL1200R.... well ya gotta have a rat-bike!

Post Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:19 am
Pa Site Admin

Posts: 5673
Location: Ohio USA

I've found it all depends on when and how you apply the brakes on any given model. Emergency use is a completely different matter though. To light....could be disasterous. To heavy....could be as well. Emergency brake use situations are more of a luck of the draw with a bit of fate involed. Just my take on brakes. Pa

Post Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:07 am

Posts: 1634
I think most of the first generation of tele forks had brakes which were at best, no better than the better girder fork units and often worse. Generally more robust and better-designed AMC and Norton units, and to some extent Royal Enfield ones, showed the way to deal with this. BSA produced a work-around in the form of their very robust, and very heavy, 8" SLS single-sided unit; the 190mm unit on the Gold Stars was much less successful unless very well set up.

The Triumph SLS drums were pretty terrible, or could be. The BSA 7" SLS drum isn't great by any means.

From having had the unwelcome experience of an emergency stop on a WLC, I'd say that the braking issues are in part caused, or at least not helped at all by the control set-up. You can afford to soft-pedal the back brake on a British foot-change bike because you are simultaneously working the clutch and engine braking as part of the stop. A foot-clutch H-D offers the choice between trying to stop under power, disengaging the clutch and leaving it there, or over-balancing.
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...

Post Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:20 pm

Posts: 1660
Location: Interlaken, NY USA

I'd like to add my observations here.
to wit, I've run one stock springer with a 11" disk with the triangular sporty caliper, (74-77)? for 26 yrs on the same fork, and have observed no bending, cracking or fatiguing to date. I've run a second setup for 15 yrs with the same result. I may just be lucky, but those are the facts. Personally, I just don't see the weakness of that rear fork leg. Just look at the pounding they were designed to endure over the roads of the era, i.e. chuck holes, washboard dirt roads, etc. It just strikes me that the forces from the brake are well within those forces they were designed for.
Do I try to do a stoppie every stop? Heavens no, but when traffic demands it, I grab a handful and am thankful :lol:
Well, enough. This wasn't to be a rant, just my observations, "your results may vary".
DD

Post Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:54 am

Posts: 57
I've noticed that some springer rear legs show a bend at the brake anchor. If braking forces cause this bend, then logic suggests that continued braking would produce continued bending. I've yet to see a rear leg that is bent beyond usability. Is it possible that other factors cause this condition? How about weld shrinkage at the anchor?

Post Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:32 am
Pa Site Admin

Posts: 5673
Location: Ohio USA

Odd you should mention that larry. I was just thinking that very same thing. I was pondering brazed on brake anchors verses welded on later ones as well. Could it be some brake anchors were welded on with to many amps if electric welded or to hot if gas welded ??

Post Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:46 am

Posts: 57
Harley welds often appear to have been done with high amperage, presumably to speed production. This would also explain the excessive spatter. Appearance does not seem to have been an issue. High heat brazing would also produce shrinkage, as the red hot metal would upset, then shrink upon cooling. Heat applied to one side of a tube will often cause it to bend, a technique used to straighten driveshafts.

Post Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:23 pm

Posts: 36
Frankenstein wrote:
I... I've run one stock springer with a 11" disk with the triangular sporty caliper, (74-77)? for 26 yrs on the same fork, and have observed no bending, cracking or fatiguing to date. .


Yeah, my 77 Ironhead Sportster has one of those front calipers -- it is only just better than a single cam drum brake, just.
I have had dual cam front brakes on late-60s BSAs and Nortons that are much, much more powerful brakes than that old "pie slice" Harley caliper.

Post Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:09 pm

Posts: 1660
Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Well....., I first put the triangle disk on my 65 pan in '80, and it proved to be a much better brake than the wide glide drum it replaced. If it weren't , I wouldn't be here today.
At any rate, I'm currently running the DLS 60's Tri-BSA drum on Frankie, and am quite happy with its operation, but it doesn't stop that 350 lb bike any better than the current 79-81 HD caliper on a 550lb bobber W/springer. That caliper seems to be about equal to the old triangle, by the way. I recently switched to them as they're cheaper and there are more pad options available for it. I've done timed and measured stops with both setups on the range where I teach.
Just my personal observations :-)
DD

Post Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:03 am

Posts: 1634
I certainly found that the old banana caliper single disc set-up on shovelheads, if properly set up and maintained, was a great improvement over the drum, but what wouldn't be? I'm less convinced that the rear disc was significantly better than the hydraulic drum.
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...


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