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looking for cylinders (again)

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45Brit

Posts: 1528

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:18 am

looking for cylinders (again)

four or five years on and I'm back to looking for cylinders and/or heads.

I started this a while ago and it just fell by the wayside, too much else to do and too little progress in other directions to make it urgent or even feasible, in the event. I should have just left it for later.

so, I'm back to looking for some cylinders and heads for a a hot 45" engine project. Ideally I'd like a set of K or KH ones, in 45" or 54" size, with or without pop-up. Failing that, some WL ones with big inlet nipples and/or porting and relieving.

I'm open to offers or pointers, preferably in UK or EU countries because of shipping etc.
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
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Samsup

Posts: 78

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:35 pm

Post Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:04 pm

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

Well, if you could wait a while ( planned is 9 months) we will have started up our first batch of repro WLDR ciliinders! I have no idea for K or KH cilinders.. If you will use WL cilinders at least use 1:6 compression heads ( repro available).
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45Brit

Posts: 1528

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:59 pm

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

Wait 9 months for something that works, and fits straight on? Not a problem. Most of my historic problems revolve around the fact that I work on the rigs so I'm away much of the year, so things move very slowly for me, sometimes come to a dead stop and also, it's easier to deal with a dealer who takes paypal or a card.

Keep me posted
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
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Samsup

Posts: 78

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:35 pm

Post Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:09 pm

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

Well easy to fit.. In 9 months you would get a set of the first batch, and be considered a test subject :D IF my factory is able to make it, which upto now has been problematic at best
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45Brit

Posts: 1528

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:17 pm

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

Ok keep me posted
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
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45Brit

Posts: 1528

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:04 am

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

What cylinder heads would be used with replica WLDR cylinders
Last edited by 45Brit on Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
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Samsup

Posts: 78

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:35 pm

Post Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:05 am

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

5 or 6 compression alu WL heads would be good
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45Brit

Posts: 1528

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:52 pm

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

Ok #6 then
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
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45Brit

Posts: 1528

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:08 am

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

What inlet manifold would they use?
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
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Samsup

Posts: 78

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:35 pm

Post Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:35 am

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

if I am correct there is a special WLDR inlet size in between WL and UL, but am not sure. We have a NOS sample set of WLDR cylinders to make castings with, we are now only in the beginning phase of planning and finding a casting company that cna do this for a reasonable price. I have never actually bothered to check what kind of manifold would fit on those cilinders...
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Cotten

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Location: Central Illinois, USA

Post Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:54 am

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

Samsup!

The WLD motor I did had the UL size of intake, and I doubt an R would be smaller.
(It should be in the new Palmer's, but I'm afraid to get it dirty.)

....Cotten
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45Brit

Posts: 1528

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:20 am

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

It would be worth knowing, because a set of cylinders which don't fit any available manifold aren't much use. Either they need tweaking to fit something available, or a manifold needs to be produced, because I'd say tbe chances of locating a good, usable WLDR unit are vanishingly small and the cost, absurd.

I've just looked in Palmer and there are several variants of the WLDR manifold - long and short inlet, and different sizes of inlet nut. It is stated to be the same as the WR unit, mounting a 1.5" four-bolt carburettor. The information isn't 100% consistent but it also says that these units are easily confused with the BTSV units, since they are all produced from the same casting. I'd guess that this means that the differing stroke and taller cylinders mean that the inlet stubs differ in length between 45" and 74"/80" units, with the 45" ones being shorter? IE, you can produce a WLDR or WR inlet from a BT one, but not vice versa?

Given the sheer volume of correspondence about manifold air leaks on this forum, I'd say that it would be necessary to know that a sample engine had been assembled, using which parts, before anyone could buy cylinders with confidence.
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
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Cotten

User avatar

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Location: Central Illinois, USA

Post Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:51 am

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

45Brit!

I realize Palmer's isn't consistant.
(The first edition cited '40 manifolds to be brass, and as soon as I got my second edition, that was the first correction I checked.
But instead of late'46-'47, he called them '41!)

WR's are virtually the same as K models, and the same nipple size as '40 and later OHV's, or "large port".
ULs are the same nipple size as '36-'39 OHV's, or "small port".
The 'long' and 'short' is a matter of a spacer block of cast iron.

Nonetheless, making a manifold from scratch is just a matter of cut-'n-paste silver-soldering, as PEEK seals can be cut to fit anything.
The hard part would be the Y-angle, best achieved by putting the pieces together upon the intalled cylinders for a jig.

....Cotten
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Samsup

Posts: 78

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:35 pm

Post Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:09 pm

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

45Brit wrote:It would be worth knowing, because a set of cylinders which don't fit any available manifold aren't much use. Either they need tweaking to fit something available, or a manifold needs to be produced, because I'd say tbe chances of locating a good, usable WLDR unit are vanishingly small and the cost, absurd.

I've just looked in Palmer and there are several variants of the WLDR manifold - long and short inlet, and different sizes of inlet nut. It is stated to be the same as the WR unit, mounting a 1.5" four-bolt carburettor. The information isn't 100% consistent but it also says that these units are easily confused with the BTSV units, since they are all produced from the same casting. I'd guess that this means that the differing stroke and taller cylinders mean that the inlet stubs differ in length between 45" and 74"/80" units, with the 45" ones being shorter? IE, you can produce a WLDR or WR inlet from a BT one, but not vice versa?

Given the sheer volume of correspondence about manifold air leaks on this forum, I'd say that it would be necessary to know that a sample engine had been assembled, using which parts, before anyone could buy cylinders with confidence.


We make 45 manifolds already, we are in the process of making UL and knucklehead ones, I am sure we can manage to make one that fits WLDR applications too :) Plus of we make the cilinders, we know we can also sell the intakemanifolds...
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45Brit

Posts: 1528

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:23 am

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

That's pretty much what I expected to find.

Given the sheer quantity of information in Palmer, and the nature of the subject, a few minor inconsistencies are only to be expected. The trick is to find them before they find you!

I'm hardly surprised that a minor part made in fairly small numbers is probably a variant of another, more common item.

I don't doubt Cotten's comments either, as far as they go; I'm sure the small number of possible buyers capable of constructing a manifold from scratch, would find this a straightforward, if time-consuming task.


It sounds as though the conclusion is that

1) any such item would need to be offered in conjunction with a suitable manifold so that the buyer can obtain a complete set of parts to build a functioning top-end

2) a buyer already possessing one of the possible variant manifold/ nut combinations will be able to identify whether their one fits or not, and why

3) there probably needs to be an additional component in the range, an adapter or alternative manifold to fit a modern carb, since 1 1/2" Linkerts don't grow on trees and aren't available in repop form AFAIK

4) item (3) may be common to BTSV manifolds, if they have 4-bolt carbs? YES if it us an adapter, NO if it is a separate unit
Last edited by 45Brit on Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
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45Brit

Posts: 1528

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:42 am

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

Another thing which comes up is that I see that Enfield Racing lists repro heads for WR, and also for WLDR and WL using racing-type profiles and cut-outs for pop-up pistons.

I also see that various suppliers list a manifold nut set described as "UL/WLDR" , and an oversize inlet valve is also offered.

These all appear to be consistent with stock WL cylinders.


So I throw out a couple more questions to the various contributors here;

1) what Pistons would be used with these cylinders?

2) is my assumption that they are essentially a bolt-on, correct?


And a couple more thoughts;

1) I'd guess that the market for performance parts of this sort is pretty small. That being so, it seems logical that any new parts brought to market should be consistent with items already on offer

2) this may not be 100% correct and original, and there will undoubtedly be half a dozen hard-core builders re-machining the valves and so on, but those guys will do that anyway
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
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Cotten

User avatar

Posts: 2831

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 1999 12:01 am

Location: Central Illinois, USA

Post Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:03 am

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

I was wrong in my previous post, Folks,...

I just ground an NOS spacer block flat, and it is steel, not cast iron.

Sorry,

.....Cotten
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Samsup

Posts: 78

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:35 pm

Post Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:24 pm

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

45Brit wrote:That's pretty much what I expected to find.

Given the sheer quantity of information in Palmer, and the nature of the subject, a few minor inconsistencies are only to be expected. The trick is to find them before they find you!

I'm hardly surprised that a minor part made in fairly small numbers is probably a variant of another, more common item.

I don't doubt Cotten's comments either, as far as they go; I'm sure the small number of possible buyers capable of constructing a manifold from scratch, would find this a straightforward, if time-consuming task.


It sounds as though the conclusion is that

1) any such item would need to be offered in conjunction with a suitable manifold so that the buyer can obtain a complete set of parts to build a functioning top-end

2) a buyer already possessing one of the possible variant manifold/ nut combinations will be able to identify whether their one fits or not, and why

3) there probably needs to be an additional component in the range, an adapter or alternative manifold to fit a modern carb, since 1 1/2" Linkerts don't grow on trees and aren't available in repop form AFAIK

4) item (3) may be common to BTSV manifolds, if they have 4-bolt carbs? YES if it us an adapter, NO if it is a separate unit


Repro cilinders for WLDR will mostl ikely need special manifold, WL will be too small, BTSV will be too big ( the cilinder intakes are further apart on the engine in case of a BTSV)
So yes, we will have to make those too.
About carburators: We have made reproductions in the past of the linkerts ( exact copies, so be carefull what you buy!! over 400 were made) and will make them again once we have someone that cna do it for reasonable price. Currenct problem is that the guy that made them wants sick money for more castings.
Secondly, Mikuni carburetors with conversionkits are sold by us for WL, and will therefore also fit WLDR applications. Available at any dealer of our parts, shitloads of these carbs go to germany for some reason..

To the matter of pistons: Use standard pistons, they will suffice, there are good japanese and indian ones in circulation, we are working on our own productline that will be based on the legendary TOTO pistons. Obviously pop-up will require modification.
About the UL/WLDR nuts, yes they are the same, but the manifold will differ.
About intakevalves, there is a special WLDR intake valve, people use it on WL cilinders (with increased intake bore) to emulate the WLDR cilinders ( without the bigger fins though) They will fit to WLDR cilinders without a problem, for WL cilinders it requires modification of the cilinder (also boring out inlet nipple to accomodate larger manifold)
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45Brit

Posts: 1528

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:18 pm

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

Ok, let's see what develops.
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
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GuS

Posts: 356

Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 12:01 am

Location: Bergen, Norway

Post Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:26 pm

Re: looking for cylinders (again)

Cut'n paste

Image

Mikuni 36mm intake for Ul nipples installed on a Wl. Hacsaw,stainless steel pipe, cut and weld. Tac weld on place with make shift seal rings. Have to do final cut to clean up due to distortion during welding. Most time consuming is to make a fixture for the final cut.
GuS
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