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WLA Trans In Progress

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X-WLCH

Posts: 111

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:16 pm

Post Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:45 am

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

ha Scoot A hose clamp in an AMF breather valve was no mistake.
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Pa

Site Admin

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Location: Ohio USA

Post Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:46 am

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

milwaukee belle wrote:Pa !
keep'on this good work !
FrenchieS are following you step by step on other forums !!!!!! :wink:


COOOOOOOOOOOL ! WAY COOOOOOL Fran-6 ! Pa
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Pa

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Post Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:47 am

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

Excellent explanation Mike !!! :D Pa
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Pa

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Post Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:16 pm

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

I should be able to add a bit more to this topic sometime tomorrow. [ Saturday ] Pa
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Chris Haynes

Posts: 2631

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Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

I don't know why you are going to all this trouble. I was just looking in Popular Mechanic's and you can buy a NOS WLA for 75 bucks. Well, it was an older issue. :D
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Pa

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Post Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:54 pm

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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FlatHeadSix

Posts: 49

Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:45 am

Post Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:31 pm

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

Chris
When I was in high school in Milwaukee in the mid-sixties the urban myth at the time was that there were thousands of them, packed in cosmolene, still in the crates and stacked to the ceiling in quanset huts somewhere, and they were $25. The only problem was that nobody seemed to know exactly where the quanset huts were or who was actually selling them. Another rumor had it that the MoCo secretly acquired and destroyed all of them so that all of us Harley hungry kids would buy new ones.

sorry, just having a flashback there......

mike
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Chris Haynes

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Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:38 pm

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

H-D did actually buy back the XA's and parts. H-D had planned on making the XA a civilian model after the war. But things just didn't work out. The XA's and parts were split between Harry Molenaar and Dudley Perkins.
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100incscoot

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Location: atascadero cal usa

Post Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:03 pm

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

i one finger typed out a big reply on the line honing issue the never posted it cause i just didn't feel like arguing the point
i'll make it real simple you have 1 thou clearance on the rollers in each end and 2 thou in the center bushing
you need 1 thou for oil and heating issues
you do the math on wether you think 2 thou on that bushing is enough if the 2 holes are not lined up together correctly

i have no clue what the amf stigma was except people were looking for problems and complaining more about them during that era
every bike style HD has ever built has had its own set of issues
i won't even go into all the earlier model issues
evos had many like leaky base gaskets or 89-91 case races coming loose in the case
evo and twin cams both had major fuel injection issues
twin cams had major timing chain flaws
hell type in any make car or bike in your browser with the word recall
as much as i dislike oriental mixings in american companys had it not been for amf we would not longer have a HD motor company
just about every time a car or bike rolls of the line it has not had the research done needed to keep it on the road till of course the company is about the change to the next model
we are the R&D dept for the most part for these companies
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Pa

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Post Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:34 pm

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

The .002" is more than enough if the side cover race and clutch gear race, are not off by more .001" from each other. The distance between the two bearing areas, clutch gear bushing and side cover roller bearing race, is quite a distance. Over that distance, the angle of decent [ which there is no angle of decent with correct tolerances ] from the bushing to the side cover race, reduces that .001", off centerline between the two, to nearly zero [ think taper per foot ]. .001" roller bearing clearance is listed as the maximum clearance for the roller fit. Specifically, the tolerance for those rollers is between .0006" to .0008 ", with .0008" prefered. I'm the first to complain how the MoCo engineers surprize me, with how they designed the 45 trans. My how the damn things seem to go on forever though ? Their mainshaft to clutch gear bushing fit is a loose fit. They did that because they didn't dowel the side cover to the case. The side cover never returns to the same exact location it was removed from, when reinstalled. There is no true register to insure it does. The two indendent shafts still run inline with each other, though they may run on a slightly different centerline. As long as the misaligned bores are not excessive, such as tolerances held to less than minumum, all components will function properly. I've yet to encounter excessive misaligned case to side cover bores yet, even when changing side covers, nor have I yet to fit rollers to a 45 case, even at minumum tollerance levels [ not less than minumum ], and have binding occur, due to the lack of any type of line lapping or line honing. None have failed me early yet either. The engine is a totally different story though. Though the flywheels separate the shafts, those two shafts are literally one shaft on the same plane and centerline. There is no cushion between the two. They must be on the the same plane and centerline. If.....a 45 clutch gear and mainshaft were designed as one solid shaft, line lapping or line honing, would definately be critical. Could the engineers improved on the design ? Not much. They stuck with it all the way to 1973. Even with Foriegn interests controling the MoCo, they didn't try to redesign it. It was eventually cut from production, because it lasted to damn long. You don't sell motorcycles if no one seeks to replace it. Pa
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Pa

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Post Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:59 pm

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

Sorry Scoot...I got carried away with my 45 clearance explaination...I didn't reply to the major part of your post. I agree with you 100% on the glitches models had. By far, Harley Davidson wasn't alone. There isn't and wasn't, anything, whether it be motorcycle, automotive, what have you, ever designed and built, that didn't have some kind of flaw, not yesterday, not today, not tomorrow. We sure are the folks who knock the glitches out of their products. Usually the hard way....through our pockets ! :mrgreen: Pa
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100incscoot

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Location: atascadero cal usa

Post Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:09 pm

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

We sure are the folks who knock the glitches out of their products. Usually the hard way....through our pockets !

i assure you with the $ and time these companies are dealing with we probly couldn't do much better if we could we'd be the ones getting huge bonus's
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FlatHeadSix

Posts: 49

Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:45 am

Post Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:46 pm

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

Pa wrote:they didn't dowel the side cover to the case Pa


which brings us back to what I said a few pages ago, there was a reason they installed a reverse gear idler shaft in every one of those transmissions even though most of them did not come with reverse. That shaft was a structural part of the assembly and served to locate and stabilize the side cover. Do we really know for sure if the factory did NOT line lap the cover to the case after installing that shaft? Even though they may have never received any kind of "witness" marking like the belly numbers on engine cases doesn't mean they didn't do it during assembly. It would end this arguement if we knew for sure.

and, exactly like you said Pa, why would you keep something in productiion that long if it didn't work? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

mike
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37ULH

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Location: somerset, oh usa

Post Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:07 pm

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

Not unless Chris has a picture, which is possible I'd guess having seen some of the other detail he's been able to provide.
Bottom line is that by Paul's standards the motor cases would have no repeatability of assembly either and we know that they were line lapped.
There is no other logical explanation as with a new shaft and new races, there are no bearings available that will provide proper fit. They have to be sized. How did they size other races????
It didn't make it into field repair manuals as they had plenty of reserves and would have just swapped in a new unit.
But like Scoot, if it's a matter of typing endurance, you win.
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Pa

Site Admin

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Post Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:59 am

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

Taken from the "MOTORCYLE MECHANICS HANDBOOK" 1943.

THE ARMORED SCHOOL
MOTORCYLE DEPTARTMENT
Fort Knox, Ky.

Prepared and published at the armored school Fort Knox, Kentucky, and distributed with the approval of the commanding General, Army ground forces.

Image

Image

Does this answer the undersized bearing race question ? Note how the instruction implies undersize to all rollers. It uses the mainshaft rollers as an example only. I forgot to underline the statement of rollers in four different places. I know I have a parts manual with the undersized rollers listed in it. I will locate it and post the part numbers for them. I have tried to obtain the undersized rollers many times in the past. No one had them in stock and no one seems to reproduce them. Pa
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Pa

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Post Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:03 am

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

The reverse idler gear shaft is a register, but it still allows side cover position movement during side cover removal and installation. It takes at least two dowels, to place two individual parts, together repetitively. Pa
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Pa

Site Admin

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Post Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:33 am

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

Well, I found the undersized roller part number for the mainshaft side cover race rollers [ no change to part number ] but I've yet to find the part numbers for the undersized rollers on the clutch gear side. What I have noticed, is how the parts and service manuals differ so much. All my later parts and service books note only standard to oversize rollers used. My early books list over and undersized rollers but one of my early books, lists only the side cover side with undersized roller availability.

Taken from 99486-73 Service manual, page 4D-25

Image

Notice how instruction is given to ream clutch gear bushing if replaced [ mainshaft rides in this bushing ] but no instruction is given for line lapping, nor line honing, the clutch gear roller bearing case race, if replaced. Why does this service manual not instruct the mechanic to align the clutch gear bearing race to the side cover bearing race ? Assembly and fitting instructions, directly follow the paragraph I posted from this service manual. This service manual ,would have been the last service manual, a dealership mechanic would have used, during the production life of the 45 model. In the engine chapter, instruction is provided for detail engine case bearing race line lapping, yet no instruction is provided for the transmission case to do the same. Pa
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Pa

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Post Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:41 am

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

I can guarantee this.....If one was to assemble the side cover to the case, set it up on a horizonal mill, dial in the case, sweep both the side cover race and the clutch gear race with a .0001" increment dial indicator, build a tool to either line lap or line hone the two bores inline, remove the side cover, reinstall the side cover, and then resweep the the two bores with a .0001" increment dial indicator, they would not be completely inline with each other again. :wink: Pa
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4700

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Location: Ohio USA

Post Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:39 pm

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

Back to the build....Referencing the 3575-41A rear chain oilers, pipe clip, and the 3580-41 rear chain oiler pipe clip, which mounts under the 2086-41 starter crank spring stud, I illustrated the differences between the two oiler pipe clips, in the photo directly below. I cannot find a part number for the clip attached to the actual rear chain oiler pipe. I don't know if there is one for it. The oiler pipe comes as an assembly. Pa

Image
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Brendan

Posts: 79

Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:59 pm

Location: Orlando

Post Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:54 pm

Re: WLA Trans In Progress

Hi Pa
I am rebuilding my trans for my solo.
I have been measuring and re-measuring today.
So far I need new rollers for the side plate based on your (outer race ID - main shaft OD - .0007 clearance)/2. all other bearing specs are OK.
I am trying to get to the end play but the transmission I have has the reverse gear.
Would you recommend tossing the gear and replacing it with the 2296-33A collar and associated thrust washers?
If I keep it, do I need a washer between the reverse gear and the Rollers?
It didn't have one when I took it apart.
According to Palmers book the case is the same and the shifter cam is the same.
but the shifter gear has a 1 on it and a yellow mark. It says that the marking is the only difference.???

EDIT
looks like I need an older cam 2243-41

I need to finish my shopping list so I can continue.

Thanks
Brendan
Last edited by Brendan on Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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