Board index Flathead Power-Technical Questions, Answers, and Suggestions 45 Flatties Skirt oiling, again...

Skirt oiling, again...

Moderators: Curt!, Pa

Post Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:49 pm

Posts: 188
Location: sweden
I know this has been discussed here before, but I'm still not sure exactly how to do it... Since I'm using KHK cylinders, wouldn't it be possible to attatch the oil line at the cylinder base instead of the screw (see pic)? Rather than drill through the crankcase?

And should I use the rear chain oiler on the scavenger pump to supply the oil? I was initially not going to use the skirt oiler but it seems I'm going to have to lose the front baffle, otherwise the front piston would have to be really short (4 5/8" flywheels)...
Any thoughts welcome, thanks Stefan.
Image

Post Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:21 pm
panic

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Last edited by panic on Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Post Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:33 pm

Posts: 1668
Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Stefan,
One way is to copy the way the K model did it. Drill out the top case bolt through hole partway, maybe 1 inch. Use 3/8 or 7/16 inch drill. Drill a hole that will intersect this drilled out passage and line up with the hole in the cylinder flange on the K cylinder. Fit a banjo fitting with a larger top case bolt and use washers, "O" rings, whatever suits you, to seal around the banjo fitting. Hook the banjo fitting to the oil supply of your choosing.
The rear chain oiler might work, never tried it.
However, keep in mind that on a K, this orifice in the cylinder received oil from the same source as the big end, and was delivered in larger quantities than can be found with the stock oiling system on a 45.
I'll say no more, 'cause everyone's sick and tired of hearing the rest..... :lol: :lol:
DD

Post Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:20 pm

Posts: 1668
Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Here's a couple of pictures to show what I mean:
Image
Here's the top hole drilled out to 7/16" diameter,You can see the 2 holes where the cylinder flanges would meet the crankcases.
I've filled the holes on this set of cases because I'm doing something different.
Also, you can see a hole in the bottom of the casebolt through hole, again, that is for a different application, and doesn't apply to what you're looking to do.
Image
Here's the banjo arrangement
On the K models, the oil passage was internal, and no banjo was needed. But Harley did the rest pretty much as shown in the pictures.
DD

Post Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:51 pm

Posts: 976
Location: Markt Einersheim, Germany

Herr Dr..

Nice pics...

I don't get tired of hearing or reading good information and help/tips. Photos are always good...

Doing similar engine but doing a scavange pump mod to a dual purpose pump.....scavange/supply pump.....and doing the mod to the oil pump to be a distribution block..to supply the oil to the skirt oilers.

Work has prevented me from doing ANY work on my toys.......

Epinut/ Stefan.........You got a PM from me here.

George

Post Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:47 am

Posts: 188
Location: sweden
Real nice pics DD, thank you! And like George said, I will not get tired reading about mods & inputs :) . But I don't know if I'm missing something here, maybe ... Is there a reason as to why I can't run the the oil line directly into the side of the cylinder base like I suggested?
George, read your PM & sent you a mail.
Thanks Stefan.

Post Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:07 am

Posts: 1668
Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Stefan,
No, there isn't any reason not to do as you suggest. It does strike me that it would get a little crowded between the cylinders that way, but should get the oil where you want it no problem. I'm sorry, I misread your original question or I would have said that in the first place.
Hey George, glad to hear of your plans, I do like the modified return pump idea, It's a very elegant solution. It's just beyond my means , out here under the chestnut tree, workin' with a hammer and anvil like I do. :lol:
DD

Post Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:28 am

Posts: 90
Location: Norway
Now I know what panic is. Its the state you are in from you write a post til you delete it. Lasts about 24 hours... :P :P :P
Torstein

Post Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:18 am
panic

..
Last edited by panic on Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:47 am

Posts: 2685
Location: Los Angeles, CA
panic wrote:
My interest in functioning as a vending machine of knowledge for the lazy and inept has rather faded in the last 40 years.


Panic,
You are a strong man and I know you can stand it. :D

Post Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:52 pm

Posts: 90
Location: Norway
Panic, there are thousands out there who apriciate your contribution. A topic on this board is always interesting for many bikers, even if there is a few dumb postings in a tread.
Torstein

Post Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:02 am

Posts: 640
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Jeff, Given your knowledge and intellect, we can only imagine the contributions you would make if you had a sense of humor. At least you could get a laugh when you are beating your head against the wall. This is not an ATTACK! repeat: Not an ATTACK! Just a friendly jostle. Kyle

Post Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:17 am

Posts: 188
Location: sweden
Ok, not sure what happened here... But does anyone know how much capacity a stock scavenger pump has?
Stefan.

Post Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:44 am

Posts: 1668
Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Stefan, According to Woody, who ran some tests and posted them here earlier, the return pump flows .55gal/min or 2.08 liter/minute @ 2400RPM. According to JIm, the stock supply pump outputs about .08 Liter/min. @ 2000RPM. By my testing, the stock '72 sporty supply pump outputs 1Ltr/min. @2000RPM.
Just do a search for "woody pump" to find lots of articles on pumps here on the forum.
DD

Post Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:59 pm
JON

Posts: 98
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Hmm-a-ha-hmm.
Interesting topic...
Anyhow, may relate to. So couragoused to ask.
Channel for front done and plugged for time to connect oiling. Rode few hundred kms after reboring, last season. Trying to find a Mikuni to co-op. It's a 34 cv, maybe from Katana (not the point but any help wanted too). Don't want to mess with oiling before good carburation and 3678+ rpm wanted.

Didn't remove baffle yet. To save cases.
Q: If I connect oiling, will it overoil?

JON

Ps. seems some chat around "oiling book". How to approach to find 1?

Post Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:43 pm

Posts: 976
Location: Markt Einersheim, Germany

Here's Woody and Dick's postings on this.

It is what I want to do as well, plus using most of Jim Casey's mods from his book on making the oil pump become just a distribution block thanks to Dick's suggestion, and web site.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9147

Post Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:06 am

Posts: 188
Location: sweden
Thanks guys, yeah I think I've managed to read most of what's been posted on the subject here. Very interesting & lots of great work! Will probably have to read through it a couple of times though to really let it sink in... DD on Frankenstein you say that you've feed the skirt oilers through the return line, do the Sportster return pump have larger capacity than the WL pump? Or would it be possible to achieve this with the WL return pump? Any idea how much it takes (volume/pressure) to get the oilers to work properly?
Btw, George did you get my last mail ?

Stefan.

Post Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:03 am

Posts: 1668
Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Stefan, it takes at least 10psi to get the jets which are around .065-.070", to squirt across the width of the cylinder. This from Jim's and my experiments. 15 is really a better number to achieve. On Frankenstein, I would guess it's only just a dribble. There can't be too much pressure on that return line, it exits in a 1/4" hole in the tank, so there isn't much restriction to develop pressure in the return line.
I'm estimating the sporty return has about 2 times the pump capacity of the WL. However, keep in mind, the return line is only going to output what goes into the engine. And on a WL supply pump, that's 1/12th of a quart per minute. And it frothy to boot.
Now Frankie has never had any lubing problems, but keep in mind that it also has a 3 hole crankpin flinging oil as well as the skirt oilers. Also, I suspect as the K style heads and jugs have a different shaped combustion chamber, the heat issues are different as well.
In short, I wouldn't depend on standard WL pumps to output enough oil anywhere to keep a skirt oiler system operational.
You're going to have to boost output to get satisfactory operation.
Having said all that, remember, most of my flathead oiling experiments have been with the Big Twin, which is a far bigger motor than the 45, and may well have bigger problems than the 45.
By the way, I've posted the sporty conversion on the web, and have started another thread to reference it.
DD

Post Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:56 pm

Posts: 188
Location: sweden
Ok, I was afraid of something like this... Not enough oil to do the job... Any chance that you'd might be able to build up pressure in the return line by restricting it? But then again I'm sure that most of the "simple" solutions have already been tried before. So if I should "wuss out" & decide to keep the front baffle & not use the skirt oilers, how much would be safe to shorten the pistons?

However it wouldn't feel good not to go with the best possible options... Read your Sporty pump conversion tech, very interesting & thanks a lot for sharing your experiences!
Stefan.

Post Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:25 pm

Posts: 304
Location: Jonesville, Louisiana, USA
Where can I read about the Sportster pump conversion ?

Sounds like an interesting read.
Last edited by dalaymond on Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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