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XL rods in Indians

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ironwigwam

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Location: Glenmoore, Pa. USA

Post Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:25 pm

XL rods in Indians

What do you think of a new crank pin that would let you run xl rods, bigger crank pin, stronger than Indian rod with out those flimsy adapters?
Imagine a one piece rod that would allow the thinner xl rod set to be fit into a wider Indian flywheel space. Rod deflection and stretch will diminish over the stock Indian units.
Rocky
1957S/VG
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Chris Haynes

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Post Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:57 pm

Over the years Indian riders have always installed Harley-Davidson parts to make their bike better. ;-)
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Cotten

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Post Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:33 pm

Rocky!

I assume we are talking Scouts, as the rod length would be "difficult" for a Chief.

You know already that I have an XL crank mocked up with the IPE hybrid pins, and that arrangement uses a thick spacer outboard of the flywheels, rather than between.
Before Moen went that direction, I suggested merely putting wider races in the female rod. Then an overlength crankpin would be easy to have produced, if JIMS hasn't already. (They used to make overlength BT pins to order for me, before they weirded out.)
I guess the concern is heat transfer from the exposed race to the rod forging.

...Cotten
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ironwigwam

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Post Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:04 pm

xl rods in Indian

Cotten,
Yes for scouts. I always seem to forget about chiefs and 4's. Rod length can be modified by cutting, welding and boxing as you well know for hybrid piston speeds and TDC rock over so length is not the big issue for all out speed, but rather for a street stroker to use common xl rods or after market bullet proof offerings for extra foundation.
The IPE kit of Moen's enables the builder to install the complete xl bottom end in Indian cases with some machining work involved, flywheels, rods, + pin. I mean a pin that would marry xl rods to chief or scout flywheels.
Its more than an overlength pin as the bearing diameters are different and tapers are different as well.
With a hybrid pin, one would use stock races but would require a thrust washer to be added at assembly for correct endplay. Then if 80 inch wheels were used you could have a 64 CI scout in a side valve configuration.
Maybe this is beyond the scope of average Indian people
Rocky
1957S/VG
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Dusty-Dave

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Post Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:52 pm

Rocky,
You know I am interested. But I thought I better make it an offical vote.
Dusty
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steve_blackbob

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Post Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:00 am

:evil: now i want a 64" scout motor :evil:

there was me thinking 57" was the biggest I could go :wink:
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ironwigwam

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Post Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:46 am

xl rods in indians

Dusty and Steve,
Good to know some one is actually reading .
Steve, engine size is only limited by lack of persistence and imagination and the ability to accept defeat. There is a larger engine CI possibility but some Indian purists see it as cheating.
I am going ahead with the cranl pins and will have limited titanium connecting rod sets to fit the pins for the rider wishing to push the envelope or box. Length will be shortened to be closer to ideal ratio.
Rocky
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halvor

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Post Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:50 am

Engine size is also dependent on cost:)

But it sounds like a fun plan.

I testrode my 45" sport scout this summer.. and while the mostly stock engine rebuild was too fresh to really push it.. I was somewhat disappointed by the lack of power.
Some bonneville cams should help.. but I'm not sure if this will be enough...
At first I didn't want to stroke the engine further than 52".. since I already have a longstroke engine.. wanted a rev happy "shortstroke" engine in the sport scout.

But after riding a 57" 101 (standard scout engine) this summer.. I think I would like to have the same torque in my sport scout ..
(if I decide to keep the bike.. trying to move the seat down and backwards for a better seating position...my legs are a little bit too long for such a small bike)
1944 Indian Chief + sidecar
1939/40 Sport scout bobber,
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steve_blackbob

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Post Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:57 am

like halvor said its all down to cost. I would love to build (or have built) a real flyer of a Scout motor but the cost of the right parts is prohibitive :roll:

I would really like to start off with a set of Warpath cases and using the best of whats available now end up with a sort of "ultimate" Sport Scout motor

so whats it going to cost ?????
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ironwigwam

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Post Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:51 pm

Halvor and Steve,
The cost of parts is actually only half the portion of going fast. The biggest expense is the labor involved to lighten up everything and put it into a harmonic balance. Titanium is not cheap and it all depends how fast you want to go for how long to determine cost.
Rocky
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steve_blackbob

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Post Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:19 am

really what i am looking for is speed and reliability.

the ability to pull clean and strong to speeds well in excess of 100mph, and tractibility to be used in modern traffic

without having to buy a modern bike
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halvor

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Post Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:41 am

yes.. it's probably best to do it right the first time..:)

Btw.. does anyone know if the #18151 and #18152 are scout cams/gears ?

I bought these cheap (looks NOS) at a swapmeet.. since they look like scout cams to me (bonneville maybe). But I haven't checked what they are until now. There's no axles or timing marks. The "lift" is higher than the chief ollie cams.
Most of the sport scout parts I have is already in the engine..and I haven't been inside that engine for some years ..
1944 Indian Chief + sidecar
1939/40 Sport scout bobber,
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ironwigwam

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Post Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:34 pm

Halvor,
Cams must be placed in a indexing timing fixture, such as half a scout engine with a flywheel to which is a degree wheel and handle with a pinion gear in the timing chest. Cam is placed in time and then the lift is measured in one degree increments to find out what exactly you have. Looks like this "cam" is just a shot in the dark. There is no way to tell what is what until you read the indicator and degree wheel to be absolutely sure. I thought I had a handy PIC of mine but alas I fear I do not have it handy
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ironwigwam

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Post Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:38 pm

Steve,
There are modern Haya's that will go over 200 MPH out of the show room floor for a lot less money that it would take to make an Indian do that. There is no room for compromise when attempting to do what you ask of an Indian. It can be done well and carefully thought out but it takes dedication and perservance.
Rocky
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steve_blackbob

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Post Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:59 pm

Rocky, i've been down the out of the crate fast bike route, and quite frankly, its boring, modern bikes have no soul.

I get more pleasure from one good run on a well set up vintage bike than a season of riding a modern crotch rocket.

The most pleasure comes from bringing the "right" parts together to build something really special.
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panic

Post Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:26 pm

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halvor

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Post Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:28 am

ironwigwam wrote:Halvor,
Cams must be placed in a indexing timing fixture, such as half a scout engine with a flywheel to which is a degree wheel and handle with a pinion gear in the timing chest. Cam is placed in time and then the lift is measured in one degree increments to find out what exactly you have. Looks like this "cam" is just a shot in the dark. There is no way to tell what is what until you read the indicator and degree wheel to be absolutely sure. I thought I had a handy PIC of mine but alas I fear I do not have it handy


ok.. I just hoped that the stamped #numbers and the NOS condition would be an easier (and lazy ..) way to figure out what the cams are ..
When I find the time, I can rig up something with the indicator and a degree wheel.. or check with Jorgen Sundberg if he recognise them.
1944 Indian Chief + sidecar
1939/40 Sport scout bobber,
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ironwigwam

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Post Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:51 am

Halvor,
Here is a simple cam reading exercise. Makes everything accurate which is what it takkesto be certain, looks like is not the same. problem with parts numbers is the fact that the parts are OLD and could have been modified during its history. Can you post a PIC of your cams? I can try to ID them.
Rocky
1957S/VG
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Pa

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Post Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:06 pm

With 4 indicators you can even time duration with the other cam timing. Pa
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ironwigwam

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Post Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:26 pm

Pa,
When we add two more cam lobes to the existing two cams, we use 4 indicators to achieve the valve duration and overlap between the intake and exhaist at each cylinder. The cam cover has large cut outs which allows cams to be seperated or moved in closer to each other to extract the optinum timing so they can be pinned and welded. A little trick my father and Clem Murdaugh used in the 40's.
Rocky
1957S/VG
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