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Ethanol

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Curt!

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Post Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:40 am

Cotton
The corn production in this country is huge. For many years a large part of the crop ended up rotting somewhere because it wasn't used. The government pays price supports to corn growers if the price falls below a certain point. Last I heard it was 2.80 bushel. Now the price is over 4.00 and the farmer is making a decent profit. Not even a shadow of what the oil companies make, but a fair profit. Has anyone even mentioned the savings to the USDA from not paying price supports? Around here quite a bit of the Milo and Soybean production has been switched over to corn production. Most farmers are double cropping where they used to single crop. Winter wheat is off the field by July then short season corn will be planted to be harvested in October. This year's crop will be significantly higher than last year's and if needed CRP ground that was idled 10-20 years ago can be returned to production with a stroke of the President's pen. Something like 25% of Kansas land is in the CRP program right now. The amount of idle farmland in the US is huge.
As far as the cost of milk, poultry and beef is concerned, it may have increased prices some, but how do you explain the costs of canned foods, vegetables, and boxed foodstuffs? The major increase in the price is due to increased cost of transporting goods to retailers. It's directly is tied to the price of fuel because nearly everything is transported by trucks. Hasn't everyone noticed that the cost of nearly everything has risen? I get new pricelists from my vendors every quarter instead of every year. Anything with steel in it has doubled in the last 2 years. Anything with plastic has doubled in 2 years.
The petroleum companies have launched a smear campaign against ethanol and, unfortunately, people are buying into it.
The most compelling argument is: Brazil is running on ethanol and doing it very successfully. I've heard is no compelling argument why the USA is incapable of following suit.
The oil inventories just came out. Crude oil inventories are up 6.5 million barrels this week. We are awash in oil and the price still goes up. There was a build of 1.7 million barrels in gasoline, the 7th week of building inventories in a row. Miles driven has dropped constantly this spring. Yet the price stays above 3.00 gal. A friend works at a refinery in Oklahoma. They have cut back hours and laid people off because of production cutbacks. The storage facilities are full. Yet the price of gas stays at 3.00. US refineries have cut the number of gallons of fuel produced by 25% since 2000 and have built no new refineries since 1977, and we still pay over 3.00 a gallon for gas. We are being scammed and America needs to fight back. Our weapon is ethanol.
Last edited by Curt! on Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cotten

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Post Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:03 am

Curt!

I'm in Central Illinois, so I'm aware of our corn production!

I'm all for ethanol (in many ways!), but I'm against the petroleum industry controlling it. As long as it comes out of station pumps, they will.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Brazil has NOT made the mistake of blending their all of their ethanol with gas. If any.

My literature searches while working for the USDA on "Gasahol" projects all showed biomass conversion to ethanol to be an extremely viable process, even with 1930s technology (when most of the basic research was performed.)
But all proposals were for community-based production for mass transit or dedicated vehicles. That would be a strange mule kicking in the oil companies stall! So far they haven't allowed it, and I doubt they will soon.

...Cotten
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Pa

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Post Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:15 am

AMEN Curt !! Alternative fuel is a small weapon in Americas' arsenal but it is a weapon just the same. The big weapon, the weapon that will make a definate change, is a petition, a national petition, born at the local level in all localities. Such a petition will focus on the acts of treasonist polititions who allow the raping of Americans by the fuel providers. The petition will provide for removal of any politician at all local, state, and national levels who do not act immeadiately on halting this fleecing. Be it by eminant domain on all oil ownership, thus converting fuel to a utility, so that fuel is no longer a profit making investment where stock holders fatten their wallets at the expence of American citizens. Fuel would no longer be an industry. Profits would be limited to expenses on operations only. As we all know full well, fuel is a nesscesity in this nation, as well as all other nations today. Fuel is like water and food. It is not a commodity anymore. Unheard of profits should not exist. Fuel is holding this nation and others hostage. Local, state, federal, and world leaders are allowing this hostage taking. This petion will remove those leaders who slip into offices via big fuel monies. This petition will exterminate those who do the fleecing, from the owners. stock holders, and their work force, "our leaders". Again...leadership, from the lowest level to the highest level should be making huge waves on the cost of fuel throughout the medias and in all the capital buildings, at all levels, around this nation, and around the globe, but they are not !! Fuel costs are barely touched on !! This petition would change that ! This petition would incorporate specific demands, law, and punishments. It would create investigative agencies put together by locals, not put together by present controlling political people. Those people are already removed, imprisoned, or executed. This is the way to put up a good fight !!!!!! The present trend of fuel costs may be worse than terrorism !! Outrageous fuel costs will bring down a whole nation !! AND FAST !!!!!!!!!!! Pa
Last edited by Pa on Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Curt!

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Post Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:17 am

Cotton
Yes, the key is to wrest the ethanol production from the hands of big petroleum. You can't do that without the support of your government and we don't have that support.
Brazil does not blend it's ethanol with gasoline, you are correct. I'd like to see some data on how the Harleys sold down there are doing running on ethanol. One of the points of HD building their factory down there was to make ethanol compliant bikes. I've heard not a word on how successful it was.
We should be building dedicated vehicles for ethanol. E85 is just keeping the petroleum manufacturers fingers in the pot. You talk to the old timers around here and nearly every farm had a still and converted their garbage to fuel during the depression. They just opened up the jets on the carb a bit and they ran fine.
Curt!
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Curt!

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Post Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:24 am

pa Good thoughts, but it would not be allowed to happen. America needs to get pissed off and vote the jerks out of office. Support an administration that will fight the good fight for the American people. Bush knows that he has a scant 2 years to line his pockets and he'll be gone. Why not rape the economy while he still can.
We are on the cusp of an energy borne recession. There are going to be a lot of hard times in the next 2 years. That, of course is just my opinion.
Curt!
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Pa

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Post Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:43 pm

I went that route Curt in the beginning but the problem with the vote is the folks you get to vote for. Only the backed by money individuals get media attention. They get their smooth talking on tv, radio, and in the newspapers, along with popular magazines and the like. Two parties take presidence and a so called independent fills in the possible gaps the two parties can't cover. In the long run, we vote in one of their clonies no matter what. For the vote to work, the way I see it, we need to place our vote on the individuals the medias do not focus upon. Everytime I voted for president, I went into the booth thinking I would have a choice between two to three apponents. To my surprize each time, The list was sometimes 30 to 40 names long on the ballet. Again, the way I see it, by using the vote, one would have to pull an eney mini miny moe, with the unknown names, in order to prevent, one of their clonies from taking office. Like flipping a coin, the vote would do no good but to keep the clonies [Democrat, Repubilcan, Independent] out of office, and this would happen only if all the voters chose, only unknown and unheard candidates., candidates who had no media type coverages. I beleive those candidates could not be clonies. The way the system now works, we choose one of their people, no matter who we put in. The only difference between those people are the issues they run on. History has shown, they all seek the same goal. Again, I am talking about the indivduals whom the medias presented to us throughout the campaigns. Is it not better to gamble with a flip of the coin, for people we do no see on the tv, hear on the radio, or read in written mass circulated media print, than to cast a vote for the money backed clonies I accused outright ?? Yes....the vote would work if we all cast our votes this way. Will we ? Not a fat chance of that happening. Petition is our only legal means of justice. Petition will reveal who has and who has no guts. Just the existance of such local, state, and federal petitions, will make many of their clonies run before they have to face the hangmans noose. Of The People, By The People, For The People !! The Will Of The People ! In this nation, the fight will effect every level of political power, from local, state, to federal levels. Even the judicial system will need reorganization. All these changes, because of these petitions, will return the power to the PEOPLE. Will the petition triumph in victory ? Not if the people treat it as they treat their voting practices. Are we doomed ? As long as we sit still idle and separated by issues focused on trival things {although important] [yet not as important as issues which determine us all as a whole do], doomed we are indeed. Our national situation is not only a homeland problem. We are all looking at a global situation. "I talk to much" Pa

P.S.....I write my opinions based on my life long observations only. I worded my comments to avoid a political discussion. I see my comments as a universal issue and I post them in relation to, but not limited to, the motorcycle world of our passions. I welcome a poll, by our membership, towards approval and or disapproval of my comments. Majority wins in this poll. If approval takes the majority vote, my comments remain. If disapproval takes the majority vote, my comments will be removed. One vote per member only please. See vote under Shoot The Bull. Pa
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vltonybob

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Post Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:56 pm

makin fuel...

Im working on a waste oil fired still and plan on doing a web page on how to do-it-yourselfer can follow along and do there own at home.I already have a web site called DADDYS GOT GAS its mostly geared to educate a little on the subject. It will cover building a WO still , cooker/boiler top plate,heat exchanger, what bronze pump to use, why a 3 or 4" column, using a continious system, purifier for well water use, and all thats really involved in makin your own alcohol. The info will be mostly based on fodder beets. It will have pixs so anyone can follow along, and you can make fuel for your skooter and your grocery-getter as well. Im also doing some research on jetting on Harleys using a M74B,S&S L,B & E series carbs. But right now im working on my FLXI castings that need to be done ASAP
Last edited by vltonybob on Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Pa

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Post Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:46 pm

Post the links. Sounds real interesting. Pa
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vltonybob

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Post Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:37 pm

sorry...

http://www.daddysgotgas.com or if your on GOOGLE just type in daddysgotgas...ENJOY
Last edited by vltonybob on Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cotten

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Post Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:01 am

Continuous still technologies were worked out in the 1930's. You might as well cut to the chase and convert a "Harvestore" or other sealed silo.

But "Daddysgotgas" oversimplifies the absorptive sieve step (zeolites, calcium chloride, Drierite, kitty litter, etc.).
Absorptive sieves require enormous energy to regenerate, and do not completely rectify the water from the ethanol.

So just burn 95/5!

....Cotten
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vltonybob

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Post Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:46 am

ethanol fuel use

Cotton may be right, on using just 95/5 (95% alcohol, 5% water) as the drying process IS one of the trickier parts of E85 fuel production.

All I am saying is that we are trying to free ourselves from dependence on foreign oil, and help educate others on doing the same thing ...by producing our own alcohol fuel. The notes we have on http://www.daddysgotgas.com are just hints and tips on various aspects of alcohol fuel production. Whether someone uses part or all or NONE of our tips is completely up to the reader. Since E85 vehicles are becoming more commonplace, our goal is to educate people that THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS besides continuing to line the pockets of the oil industry.

I'm not sure what Cotton meant by his "Harvestore" silo comment, but we have no intention of blowing ourselves up! haha.....we are using information from Roger Sanders who has done much research in using waste oil as a heat source.

There have been many comments concerning using pure alcohol fuel in our Harley motors, but no real answers as yet as to the effects on gaskets, and other rubber and plastic parts. I would be interested in hearing any information anyone has on this topic. We have read that two possible alternative "lubricants" are castor oil, and Marvel Mystery Oil. Any info on these?? It would be great to know how the Harley plant in Brazil is handling these issues on the bikes built down there.

Also Pa: I completely AGREE with your comments concerning voting for one of the two (one and the same) parties and would like to hear more about this "petition" you keep mentioning.....
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Plumber

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Post Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:49 am

It would be great to know how the Harley plant in Brazil is handling these issues on the bikes built down there.

I agree, but you will never find any information on the Brazilian ethanol process. It is a tightly held secret. It would be easier to obtain the original formula for Coca-Cola® and sell the formula to Peps-Cola® and then buy all the gas you needed any time you felt like it.
No-way can you brew "white-gas" (what we used to call it in the 50's) at home. If you could, the manufacturers would make sure the motors would be designed so you couldn't use it without pinging or detonation problems. It's a closed shop in the world of motor fuel.
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JohnR

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Post Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:53 am

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Cotten

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Post Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:54 pm

Just for clarity:

"Harvestore" is a proprietary name for a sealed silo that dots the landscape throughout the Midwest (atleast) as tall navy blue towers. Them's big cylindrical storage bins for chopped feed for livestock,... like this if yer serious: http://www.cadyinc.com/cadyHS.htm.

Its easy to 'sterilize', and with the right preparations, you can tap off a distillable "beer' in a matter of a day or so.

Its too simple.
Thats why the industrial complex wants us to stay focused on mixed fuels.

If you want independence, it's within your reach.
But for now, we are better off just telling our legislators that mixing ethanol is a loser.
....Cotten
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Pa

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Post Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:49 pm

The petition needs tio have its roots at the local levels. It will esculate to the federal level quickly. The task of spreading the word is the most difficult part of it. The media cannot be counted on to help. They will not cover it untill it has esculated and spread nationwide. Spreading is the real task. The citizentry must hear of this first. Funding will be needed in order to pass the idea out to all the citizens within the nation. Donations are the only means to fund the move. Corporate funding will not exist. Small business may donate though but the major funding donations will come from the indivual citizens. Most likely the folks at the helm will need to create a non profit organization in order to legally proceed with the move. Mass mail seems futile and to expensive. It could be used, but again... funding is the problem with it. Inteligent indiviuals who possess the skills in mass marketing will be needed also. They will organize the educating of the citizens and make the decisions on how to meet that notification goal nationwide, and within a short time frame. Legal help will be needed for the contents of the petition. Organization, such as the parties have, will be a vital component of a petitionary move. Like the Declaration Of Independence or The Bill Of Rights, the final draft of such a petition will need radified. This radification will be completed by the individual citizens, all of those who participate. They will cast their vote on the petition. The votes will be counted by several independent organizations. I am a layman like most of you. I laid out the direction but I do not possess the tools, nor the means to build on it. Many of you do. Many of you know people who do. Most of us know people who agree. Pa
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vltonybob

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Post Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:00 pm

WOW.....a blue tube (the Cadillac of storage silos) fermentation tank!! That would be SUMTHIN..... but we are gearing toward the average person who doesn't have lots of land or money to put a BIG blue tube in his back yard....one who can make fuel in a corner of his garage or back yard to power his own grocery getter, bike etc.

BUT..that's a way interesting idea, and no reason why a coop of farmers couldn't combine their crops and hard work and do big runs for alcohol fuel from a fermentation tank that size. Thats just not our forte'...we are interested in educating the average person at home how to make alcohol fuel for personal use.

Maybe Cotton has some information on just what is involved in modifying a Harley motor so that it will RUN on a 95% alcohol 5% water mix?? As far as we know, there must be some additive to provide lubrication.
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Cotten

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Post Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:40 am

Mike Brown published his experiences with running a Panhead on 95/5 about thirty years ago. Linkerts make it easy.

If you are worried about top end lube, consider looser oil rings.

.....Cotten
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vltonybob

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Post Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:51 am

Back in 96 when I was doing work for the refineries, a man from Tennessee or Kentucky talk about moonshine and a rock still (fractionating column) which was a copper pipe filled with river rock basicly like my purifer that im going to use with my well water.. and we all laugh...ANYWAY, I read a book that this guy had by Mike Brown at that time on carbs and I can't remember anything on the Linkert carb...and to be honest I forgot about it till you said something about it...but I DID NOT know about running it on 95/5...Very Interesting. I will do some research and add that info also to my notes so others can enjoy.
THANK YOU COTTON
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Pa

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Post Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:21 am

Image

Search for the book using [ ISBN 0-87947-300-2 ]

CHAPTER : THE CARBURETOR
PAGES : 13-48
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Plumber

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Post Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:08 am

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