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V-Twin Expo

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Curt!

Posts: 903

Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Hill City, Ks. USA

Post Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:03 pm

V-Twin Expo

Kind of off-topic for this entire site, but since our hosts will have a booth there, I'll ask anyways. Any of you guys going to the V-Twin Expo in Cincinnati, Oh on Feb 2-5, 2007? We'll be there from Friday night to either Sunday or Monday if anyone wants to meet for a meet-and-greet.
Curt!
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Plumber

Posts: 1536

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:01 am

How about somebody take some photos there of any parts manufacturers booths that support 1936-1959 ? I'd like to see if V-Twin has their rolling stock rigid frame "kits' on the floor, or their Knuckle and Panhead motors - any motorcycles that you have to kick to start. :lol:
Last edited by Plumber on Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pa

Site Admin

Posts: 4776

Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Ohio USA

Post Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:39 am

We will try and make it Curt. It would be great to see ya again and shoot the bull with the FHP team. Gonna try like heck to go for sure ! Pa
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Plumber

Posts: 1536

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:53 pm

:arrow:
Last edited by Plumber on Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Curt!

Posts: 903

Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Hill City, Ks. USA

Post Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:50 am

Well, I'm outa here till Tuesday. Any of you guys that are at the Expo can reach me on my cel at 620-792-1976 and we'll hook up for a few brews. I'll let you all know how it goes when I get back.
Curt!
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Plumber

Posts: 1536

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:54 pm

Did anyone attend the "S&S EPA certification seminar for ground-up builds" :?: - (Powersports Business News). They held a separate seminar on their new motor.
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Curt!

Posts: 903

Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Hill City, Ks. USA

Post Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:43 pm

plumber
I attended the S&S Essentials seminar and it was covered in there. The same tech that did the ground up seminar gave us the condensed version of that seminar. I learned a lot about it and it's just a whole ball of bad news for the ground up builder. Not all S&S motors are EPA compliant. you have to order an EPA motor to be able to certify it. They put the onus on the dealer to certify that the whole motorcycle is compliant. They have a requirement that the bike can't exceed a certain weight, it must have an exhaust system that maintains a certain back pressure. The motor comes with a very limited manual on the things you can tinker with on it, but basically you can't tinker with the motor at all. Only one EPA compliant sticker comes with each motor. If you lose it or screw it up you will be charged 1000.00 for a replacement sticker. If the bike is wrecked you will have to cut the frame section out and return it to S&S to get a replacement sticker. They have not decided how much to charge for a sticker in this case but 250.00 was the number they bandied about. If you re-paint the bike, you'll have to return the sicker intact and there will be a different charge for replacement there. Less than 1000, but more than 250.
The dealer fills out the forms for the EPA and must enclose photos of the bike as it left the shop and send them in to S&S. You must agree that you will not alter the bike after that point. If the owner alters it you have photos to cover your ass and the liability shifts to him. You may sell a compliant motor to a customer for a home build, but before the sticker can be placed on the completed bike the dealer must certify that the bike is compliant and take photos to prove it.
If a dealer gets caught 3 times breaking any of the rules, S&S will no longer sell you any parts and you will be permanently banned from having a dealership.
The twin cam and the X-Wedge are the only versions able to be certified at this time, but they are working on expanding it to their other motors.
I took 3 EFI seminars and the EPA rules were discussed in all of them. One of the experts said it will be possible to pass the EPA regs with a carburated motor, but it would take a lot of work to do so.
I didn't go to the "How to build a chopper" seminar, but the EPA rules were discussed in there and some info was passed on about how to get home builds certified and the "show bike" loophole.
From everything I heard the days of building a relic bikes from the ground up with new motors and frames are over. That is, if the various states enforce the rules. There was a lot of talk that most states will not enforce the EPA rules, but your taking a big chance in building a non-EPA compliant bike was a frequent warning. One of the experts in the room made a comment that " if you live in California, you're just screwed"
Oh, one more thing. Since most states don't have the equipment to test exhaust emissions the EPA is going to let them get away with plugging a diagnostic tool into you ECM or EFI controller and get the O2 sensor reading history and the Fuel/Air/ Ratio mix. They will be able to see from there if the bike is compliant and has been for months prior to the test. So, if you plan on putting mufflers and air cleaners on and leaning the FAR mix out for the test, you won't get away with it.
Curt!
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ramjet

Posts: 55

Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:07 am

Location: west coast

Post Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:16 pm

All this is so sad to hear. I do live in Ca. and it is really getting disgusting.
I don't know how many of you can remember back to the '50s, when we could build just about anything we wanted. If you could hang lights on it, it was good to go. Motorcycles and hot rods, your imagination was the only thing holding you back. Geez, those WERE the good old days.
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Plumber

Posts: 1536

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:19 pm

Very good reporting. Would have liked to have hear more about what the chopper people were going to do. I see that Big Bear Choppers is expanding to a womens low-rider model. I suppose they'll use S&S certified motors. Well, looks like the great 48 states will let you slide through a kit-build for maybe another year. And then, as the EPA gains federal clout, they'll force the states to comply. I'm sticking with my knuckle and pans. 8) They can have all the modern stuff.... but all 50 states will allow the antique's to attrition-on-down; meaning you can ride them until the serial numbers fall off the crankcase. Makes the antiques a little more valuable, especailly to their owners.
Thanks for fine reporting.
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Pa

Site Admin

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Location: Ohio USA

Post Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:54 pm

Yeah Curt, that was a really deep report. Very disturbing to say the least, especially if it spreads across the nation as well. Odd what the states are doing on their own also. Not even slightly related to epa regs, Ohio now asks you what color your vehicle is when you are renewing your yearly registration. I asked the clerk " why" ?? "am I not permitted to paint it any color I want" ? The clerk said "of course you can and are" "we just need to have the imformation when you make those changes.

Sorry I couldn't make it to the expo. I tried but wasn't able to. Pa
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Curt!

Posts: 903

Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Hill City, Ks. USA

Post Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:11 pm

Everyone was clear to express the point that if you have a bike that is already titled, a frame with numbers and title, or a bike titled prior to 2006 that you could put any motor, trans, exhaust system you wanted to, in it. The new builds is what the EPA is after.
The price of titles has just gone through the roof. That would certainly be the easiest way to continue to build what you want.

Also, if you have a set of cases built before 1970 (before frame numbers) you wouldn't be bound by these rules. I think you can still get a builder's title using the rules in effect when the cases were built.

I'd sure like to hear the FHP guys take on this. How about some opinions Doug? Steve?
Curt!
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Plumber

Posts: 1536

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:47 am

My sources in the industry told me that nothing will change. Most of the states won't be able to implement EPA emission demands, and that at worst, there will always be work-arounds in all but Calif. and NY. People will continue building and parts buying until the day they quit making gasoline.
Our problem, is that we have no one looking out for our core interest. The replica industry will go where the wind blows it. The manufacturers that make our parts (Colony® and a few others exceptioned) will continue with smash and grab business ethics that will eventually succeed in squeezing out the smaller suppliers; essentially by selling closer to wholesale price, what the smaller dealers are forced to sell at retail price.
We're still for the one-kit-bike-per-person-per-liftime option once offered by the EPA. If S&S and Harley-Davidson team up to outlaw us, there's not alot we can do about it, unless the law intentionally allows loop holes for the individual builder. Unfortunately, by the time the public hears about "something coming down the Pike", it's usually a done deal.
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Plumber

Posts: 1536

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:15 am

I wrote the AMA for some scoop on kit-builds. You'd think that Tedd Cycle, FHP, Colony, Eastern, Kick-Start, Paughco, Primo, BDL, Karata, J&P, AAAOK, Buchanan, and whoever else that makes a living off antique replacement parts would have some stake in seeing the one-kit bike-per-lifetime EPA suggestion enacted. Ya think? :wink:
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Curt!

Posts: 903

Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Hill City, Ks. USA

Post Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:47 am

plumber
I thought it was enacted with the EPA regs of 2006. I didn't address it in my earlier remarks because the information I picked up was geared toward the independent shop. As I understand the rule, you can't have a shop build you a bike under that rule, It must be a home built motorcycle. That being said, it would be advantageous for the industry to build a kit bike that nearly anyone could complete and be within the letter of the law.
Curt!
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Plumber

Posts: 1536

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:01 am

Location: S.Calif.

Post Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:22 pm

As I understand the rule, you can't have a shop build you a bike under that rule, It must be a home built motorcycle.

I believe that another person can build your kit, as long as you bring the builder the parts.

That being said, it would be advantageous for the industry to build a kit bike that nearly anyone could complete and be within the letter of the law.

One would think. 8)

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