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Strange electrical problems............UPDATE........

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44dwarf

Posts: 318

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:22 pm

Location: north central Ma.

Post Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:51 pm

Strange electrical problems............UPDATE........

Hi Gang.
Went for a night ride to fuel up for the morning. Turned the head light on and at idle it would dim and them go bright. I taught no problem it's the mech regulator need more rpm. So off i go and all is well if speed is under 35mph any faster and lights go dim and engine misses and tries to stall!! Made it to the gas station and got gas turned around to go home and same thing over 35 it sputters so i slowed down and it ran okay until i pulled in to the driveway and the light died and motor died too.
Turned off the keys and went to bed, so much for riding to work.
Came home after work checked voltage at BAT terminal 6.15 volts started her up 6.4 volts turned on head lamp 6.6 then back down to 6.4 rev it and its steady 6.4.
So i shut it down and looked at everything i could for a short to explain the dimming i had seen. Can't find anything.
Pulled brush cover and it has a 1/4 inch of sludge build up on the bottom and oil film on everything in side the generator.

Plan to clean it all and adjust the delco No:307 regulator but can't find directions only that it can be done. Shop dope says it should be 7.4 volts. That seams high to me.

Any ideas?
Oh 52 model K all stock

44
Last edited by 44dwarf on Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Smok'in the competition NOT Tobacco"
"Transplant organs, Don't bury them!"
Why dwarf? 5/8 scale race cars! http://www.dwarfcarracing.com
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Jerry Wieland

Posts: 606

Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 1:01 am

Location: Menomonie, Wisconsin, USA

Post Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:29 pm

Sounds like you are leaking gearcase oil into the generator. Needs a new generator seal.

Jerry
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Barry55KH

Posts: 240

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:01 am

Location: Kirkland, WA, USA

Post Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:58 pm

Jerry may be correct, but I would take the Battery out, and take it to a battery shop and have them Load Test it. A battery that seems like it is good, will have a short, or bent plate that touches as the charge from the gen set increases. I replace mine every other year, and use a tender on it. Had one do that this year and it just died on a ride. Put in a new battery and it was fine. I use the Yusa 6 volt, as the K model style have been hard to get until recently.

If you try to milk your battery for the sake of saving money, you will end up replacing your voltage regulator also.... twice as expencive.

How old is the battery?

Best Regards,
Barry55KH
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44dwarf

Posts: 318

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:22 pm

Location: north central Ma.

Post Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:14 am

New gell cell battery. Not even 4 months old.
It seems to be running fine now.............but i'm not riding it untill i find out why.

Thanks
44dwarf
"Smok'in the competition NOT Tobacco"
"Transplant organs, Don't bury them!"
Why dwarf? 5/8 scale race cars! http://www.dwarfcarracing.com
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Frankenstein

User avatar

Posts: 1560

Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Post Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:24 am

44dwarf, Sounds like a regulator problem to me. I think the voltage control set of points are sticking,dirty, whatever. Here's what I think is happening. At low revs/speeds, the points are closed, and the gen gives max output. as the speed picks up, the points open to regulate and then as voltage drops don't make good contact on closing. So the output stays too low. drop the revs, you get lucky, get a good connection through the points and it charges again. Usually those points vibrate very rapidly to regulate the voltage. When the points are open, the generator field is fed through a resistor in the regulator, when closed, they're fed directly through the points. Jerry's also got a good point about the seal, and that oil/gunk will lower the output of the generator or cause it to quit. It's probably a contributing cause to your problems. Just a long distance guess, but I suspect you're looking at replacing the regulator and the oil seal.
By the way I"m with you all the way on the organ thing, only I'm planning on wearing all mine out first!
Dr. Dick 8)
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Jerry Wieland

Posts: 606

Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 1:01 am

Location: Menomonie, Wisconsin, USA

Post Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:45 am

When I am working on a DC current chassis ground system and the situation defies explanation I usually look for a bad ground somewhere.

Jerry
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44dwarf

Posts: 318

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:22 pm

Location: north central Ma.

Post Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:14 pm

Pulled the Gen out tonight so i could clean it and replace the seal and brushes. Found the nose cone (frame end) has a crack in it, Ended up snapping it in two looking at it. DOH.......... :x

It was full of oil and water! The field windings are soaked. I don't want to use any solvent cause i'm afraid i might soften the lacquer / varnish on the wires.

Anyone got a 52 6 volt gen laying around?

Thanks

44
"Smok'in the competition NOT Tobacco"
"Transplant organs, Don't bury them!"
Why dwarf? 5/8 scale race cars! http://www.dwarfcarracing.com
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Frankenstein

User avatar

Posts: 1560

Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Post Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:53 am

It's worth giving the fields and armature a slow bake in the oven at low temp.Won't hurt, and will drive the moisture out. To clean out the oil, use something like Kerosene, pretty mild and will cut the oil. Or my latest find is "Simple Green", buy it at Wallyworld, cuts the greese and oil, is water based, so after cleaning the oil mess, give it the slow low temp bake. Not too hot to touch. Did this to some CCTV cameras years ago that went through a flood, underwater fora couple of days. The slow bake dried them out and got them back up and running.
One of my favorite repair stories was of the Cornell U. researcher who was recording jungle birds in S. America years ago with a very expensive portable reel to reel tape recorder. It would quit on him in the jungle, but when he brought it back to the States, it would work fine on my bench. Finally found this light trace of dry green film on parts of the green printed circuit board inside. It was a fungus, and would go dormant up north and dry out. In the jungle, it would take off, absorb moisture and short out part of the circuits! Cleaning the board and recoating with a sealant got the birds on tape.
I know, nothing to do with generators, but was just in a ramblin' mood I guess.
Dr. Dick
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44dwarf

Posts: 318

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:22 pm

Location: north central Ma.

Post Sat Apr 15, 2006 8:18 am

Funny you should say simple green. i just got a gallon and a spray bottle.

Oh just so you know simple green can discolor some grades of alum so don't use it on your motor with out testing a hidden area!

Cleaners not to use on motor cases!
Castrol Super Clean
Greased Lightning
Formula 409

I used to do some porting work and the guy would fill the ports up with super clean after i was done to hind my work.

44
"Smok'in the competition NOT Tobacco"
"Transplant organs, Don't bury them!"
Why dwarf? 5/8 scale race cars! http://www.dwarfcarracing.com
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Barry55KH

Posts: 240

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:01 am

Location: Kirkland, WA, USA

Post Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:07 am

There have been some '52 gen sets on E-bay in the last couple of years. You could always just a later 12 volt, and change the coil, and the bulbs to 12 volt. I like the 6v just because the Generator has been good all these years. I am now knocking on wood, yes my head!

I like S-200 or simple green for mild case cleaning on pollished cases. On rough stuff, like when I first found my 350 Sprint, I used "Foamy Engine Bright" with great results.

Sorry about the Generator, but glad you found the problem.

Barry55KH
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krazy loop

Posts: 646

Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:01 am

Location: Detroit

Post Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:10 am

I years past I used to get my old 6volts rewound and rebuilt at the local electrical/generator/alternator repair service. You might check to see of there is one near you that can handle it. The cost was far cheaper than a new generator.
New Knuckleheads? Thank, you, Jesus!!
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44dwarf

Posts: 318

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:22 pm

Location: north central Ma.

Post Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:30 pm

Looks to be about $90 to rebuild it with NOS parts the bearings are okay but they'll get change while i'm in there the armature looks to be good but i have to find that old growler test i got years ago............

Found a junk on on ebay hopefully i win it.

44
"Smok'in the competition NOT Tobacco"
"Transplant organs, Don't bury them!"
Why dwarf? 5/8 scale race cars! http://www.dwarfcarracing.com
<<

George Greer

User avatar

Posts: 961

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Markt Einersheim, Germany

Post Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:58 pm

On Simple Green.

The United States Army Aviation Engineers have banned the use of it on Army Helicopters.

You can never get it all out/off alum parts and it causes corrosion, discoloration and Hydrogen Embrittlement.

Where I work is currently undergoing a large Dissassembly-Inspection-Repair-Assembly, of the UH-60A & L model helicopters that are being used in the current operations in the middle east.

There's yet another Engineering letter out, reminding all aviation maintenance personel that the use of Simple-Green is NOT allowed.

As is the prior use of "steam-cleaning" of parts and aircraft....Not allowed anymore.

George in Germany
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Masterblaster

Posts: 31

Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2000 1:01 am

Location: Southwest-Germany

Post Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:47 am

Electrical Problem ?

From all that i read so far this is more a ground problem than anyting else,especialy since the motor / ignition went out on you. It`s a very common problem on many HD`s especially when the Groundwire is cramped to a cablehook or shoe and moisture gets between the connections...... Use a braided flexible automotive type ground and you shoud be good to go.
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44dwarf

Posts: 318

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:22 pm

Location: north central Ma.

Post Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:51 pm

Okay thanks to NOS parts.com i got my gen all rebuilt, and oil free!
Installed it tonight and still get same voltage outputs but there with in spec as per shop dope 54 update on voltages being dropped to keep from blowing out the head lamp.
Some things still puzzle me.
1) "GEN" bulb burned out during the last run.
2) Some times with IGN off if you turn on the head light key switch it will come right on other times it will not come on.
3) Some times when you turn on the IGN key switch both the OIL and the GEN light will light other times they do not but it you kick over the motor they come on.

To make sure the grounding of the gen was good i ran a 10 gauge wire from a taped hole in the nose cone / frame end on the gen to the main frame up by the head light. I redid the battery terminals as well and polarized the fields.

I'm going to get a new regulator to have on the self and i have a punch of used gen parts on there way so i'll have a whole spare i hope.

Any ideas on 1-3?

Thanks gang.

44Dwarf
"Smok'in the competition NOT Tobacco"
"Transplant organs, Don't bury them!"
Why dwarf? 5/8 scale race cars! http://www.dwarfcarracing.com
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Chris Haynes

Posts: 2636

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 12:01 am

Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:05 pm

Disassemble and clean your ignition switch contacts.
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krazy loop

Posts: 646

Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:01 am

Location: Detroit

Post Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:16 pm

You may have just had a bad bulb or one one the way out. They don't last forever.
New Knuckleheads? Thank, you, Jesus!!
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100incscoot

Posts: 2399

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:01 am

Location: atascadero cal usa

Post Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:22 pm

faulty contacts in the ign switch as chris said
try the same things and wiggle the switch
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Barry55KH

Posts: 240

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:01 am

Location: Kirkland, WA, USA

Post Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:49 am

Your Oil light will come on after a couple of kicks, as the pressure trapped by the ball check is released and your pressure switch makes a ground. This is common on K models. This would mean that both lights are on. The Gen light will always come on when you turn the ignition key on, and then it will go out when it starts. If it does not come on, the bulb is bad, or it is wired wrong.

I would put a new voltage regulator on it, and replace the bulb. The bulbs often break from vibration. Check to make sure that the wire from your warning light is set to the Generator/middle connection post. Make sure the voltage regulator is grounded, as the ground straps often break on these. It runs from the bottom plate to the mount that holds it on the Generator. If the strap is broken, the light will stay on, and you will not be charging. Just replace the regulator and start fresh.

Good luck.
Barry55KH
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44dwarf

Posts: 318

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:22 pm

Location: north central Ma.

Post Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:24 am

Well i was messing with it last night and trying to find any bad conections and found a few questionable ones but all Megger okay. Pluged it all back in it fired up fine and then shut off by it self ( it's normal for this bike) tryied to restart it nothing. Hum...........Turned on head light nothing....WTF so hooked up the volt meter 4.4 volts what the heck started disconecting things untill it got back to the battery to see where the short / draw was it's the new battery!!!!
Took it out of the bike. Voltage measures 4.4 volts slam it on the ground 6.5 volts....tiping slightly 4.2 volts somethings wrong with my new gell cell.
ERRRR.........................
Spent $200 in parts and 2 weeks of time chaseing generator problems that were not there.
Will see how the new battery works when it gets here. I hate lead acid but at least i know it will work fine.

44dwarf
"Smok'in the competition NOT Tobacco"
"Transplant organs, Don't bury them!"
Why dwarf? 5/8 scale race cars! http://www.dwarfcarracing.com
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