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Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

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scaryguy

Posts: 20

Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:41 pm

Location: somewhere near Stratford, Ontario Canada

Post Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:35 am

Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

I am collecting parts for a wl/k project. I have early k-model top end and wl cases, etc. I have a question for those with more experience than I. How much trouble would adapting 900 Sportster flywheel, rods, etc. to my project? I am thinking of a stronger overall bottom end, instead of the 45 crankpin and flywheel assembly. Would this be a case of too much trouble for too little gain. I want to put miles on this bike, and longevity is important to me. Thanks.
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jib

Posts: 570

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:36 pm

Location: devon,england

Post Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:43 am

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

money and or time is the issue, with engineering ability another need, .

get /buy panics 45 tech papers from victory libray or research previous posts here.

T&O make cranks to fit 45 wl that will take the sportster rod and pin , mucho money.
Dude, check out that jibhead, he's crazy. Hasn't been sober for 40 years
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RUBONE

Posts: 380

Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:24 pm

Post Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:09 pm

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

Just keep in mind that an Indian Chief big end is the size of a stock 45!
Robbie
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Chris Haynes

Posts: 2616

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 12:01 am

Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:42 pm

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

RUBONE wrote:Just keep in mind that an Indian Chief big end is the size of a stock 45!
Robbie


I have heard that Robbie.
By using the Chief wheels and custom stroker pistons haw many inches will that coax out of the 45"?
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jib

Posts: 570

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:36 pm

Location: devon,england

Post Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:44 pm

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

think you were missing , Robbie's point Chris, it being that chief engines are of larger capacity and more powerful than a Harley 45 [all being that we are talking here about a wl/k] yet have the same size bearing arrangement for the big end.

however i see were you are coming from. regards jib :)
Dude, check out that jibhead, he's crazy. Hasn't been sober for 40 years
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RUBONE

Posts: 380

Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:24 pm

Post Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

Chris,
Pi r squared h times 2! ( how do you put mathematical symbols on here?)
Off the top of my head I seem to recall about 57 CI but best to compute it!
Robbie
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RUBONE

Posts: 380

Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:24 pm

Post Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:39 pm

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

Lots of modern racers using 45s are running stock size lower ends. All the work to convert to Sportster rods (special flywheels, special crankpin, re-blance, etc), is a lot of excess for no known gain. Are you setting cams up for ball bearings, main bearings for ball bearings, lightening all the components as a race motor was? If not you are not going to gain anything significant. The big bearing lower ends were designed to take advantage of high RPMs as a result of all the other aspects. Not just pure strength but lower roller speeds to prevent roller skid, etc. On a street bike you are really just joyriding your mind to think it will be at that level.
JMHO
Robbie
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jib

Posts: 570

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:36 pm

Location: devon,england

Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:58 am

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

robbie that is such a cool answer, especialy if building a stroker as the rpm's will be lower anyway because of the need to keep the piston speed down.

my build is as of now back on track , regards jib
Dude, check out that jibhead, he's crazy. Hasn't been sober for 40 years
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amklyde

Posts: 624

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:01 am

Location: Wisconsin, USA

Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:37 am

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

The best part of Rob's reply was the use of the expression "joyriding your mind". I've got to ponder on that one for a while.
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Beachdog

Posts: 765

Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 12:01 am

Location: CA USA

Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:28 am

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

I agree with Robbie. I've never seen a set of stock 45 rods fail. The only reason I'd go with the work needed to put sportster rods in a street bike would be to build a Magnum. There are a fair number of NOS 45 rod sets floating around. Get a set. Have them checked for defects, polish them if you feel the need and build your SV hotrod. Don't bother doing a ball bearing conversion unless you have more money than God and need the bragging rights. The late Francis Clifford always built his many strokers as stock roller bearing/bushing motors. They always ran strong and long. Cliff felt that there was no practical advantage to the all ball bearing bottom end except in an all out WR racer. As he told me the many guys that raced WL motors with the WR top end kits did not fail to win because their motor was inferior, but they lost because the WR riders were generally more experienced.
I am rebuilding a WLA/WR kit motor from an old county fair privateer that has several interesting mods. The guides are sleeved down to take the thin stem KR valves. The WLA cases are releaved for the polished WR rods. The inside of the cases are polished. The WL flywheels are cut down to WR size and polished. Everything else is pretty much standard stuff.
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scaryguy

Posts: 20

Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:41 pm

Location: somewhere near Stratford, Ontario Canada

Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

Ok, ok....loud and clear. Seriously, thanks for all the input. I am not building a racer, or looking for technical overkill bragging rights. I just want to ride the most reliable motor I am able to build with the parts I have. I certainly don't want to make this project any more complicated than it needs to be. Like I said, I just want to do the best job I can. Actually, I am relieved that the idea of a Sportster flywheel assembly is overkill, and over-budget. That saves me a lot of grief, and cash. I don't have any reservations about spending money on anything that will help me build a better bike, ( I have a set of Enfield Racing's angled tappet blocks and covers, and they are top notch - beautiful to behold!), but my mind is full of ideas and flights of fancy, I suppose. That is why I posed the question. Thank you guys for your experience and advice.
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jib

Posts: 570

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:36 pm

Location: devon,england

Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:11 pm

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

SG are you going to use ,Bruce's wr angled cams too? if so what profile have you decided on? regards jib
Dude, check out that jibhead, he's crazy. Hasn't been sober for 40 years
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45Brit

Posts: 1399

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:27 pm

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

I looked at using Bruce's angled WR cams a while ago. Since the K barrels element seems to be back on the workbench, it reminds me that I couldn't find any UK engine-builder to undertake the work, and don't have the facilities to do it myself.

My WL stroker project has several options, ranging from KNS stroker cams to WLDR or some ground-down ones as used by another UK member on a bike which seems to run very well. Right now this engine is in the form of being mainly bult with details of this sort to finalise, but that will take care of itself st this stage.

However the K-barrel engine is still at a formative stage ( basically it will be an occasional sports bike for whatever amuses me and leave the stroker as a soft, punchy road bike ) and I'm open to suggestions on this.
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
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scaryguy

Posts: 20

Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:41 pm

Location: somewhere near Stratford, Ontario Canada

Post Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:05 am

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

My plan was to use the "KHK" profile cams.
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Frankenstein

User avatar

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Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Post Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:27 pm

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

Roller skid has always intrigued me. It's one of those things I've heard much about, but not sure where and when it happens, like in HD bottom ends. That's barring the frozen condensate between rollers preventing rotation scenario. :lol:
I guess I'm asking, if roller bearings are in such universal use, is this skidding "thing" something all designers have to be careful to design around WRT to load, speed, lubricant? I guess I'm just looking for someone to relate some factual evidence it happens.
Thanks,
DD
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RUBONE

Posts: 380

Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:24 pm

Post Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

H-D did much research on roller skid in the '50s due to lower end failures in KRs. Most of the results pointed to inability to get rid of oil and too high of roller speed. Going to notched races , 1/4 speed oil pumps, and better scavenge cured one issue and bigger rollers spaced further apart effectively cured the other. Most roller bearing Brit engines suffered as well, hence the movement from crowded rollers to caged and larger diameter. This basically only applied to engines in extreme use, such as Daytona racers, not average racers and not street engines.
Over rev an engine pumping full flow with no where for the oil to go and you have a scenario for hydraulic lock. If the rollers slow down even for an instant and slide instead of roll your lower end is junk.
The notched races made it into all the street bikes shortly afterward.
Robbie
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45Brit

Posts: 1399

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:26 am

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

interesting to read about the MoCo's research. The British manufacturers did no useful research into the subject and it remained a problem in racing and high-performance engines to the end.

Edward Turner may have laid out the Speed Twin but his philistine attitude to engineering design, coupled with his dominant position within the industry and long-term feud with Bert Hopwood ( probably the only senior designer of genuine originality and ability then working in the industry ) was catastrophic in the end.

JAP probably produced more roller-bearing racing cranks than any other manufacturer but I'm sorry to say that their design continued largely unchanged from the 1930s to the 1960s and "replace frequently" was about the extent of their answer. Jawa seem to have done some more useful thinking with their 1960s 2-valve design, since big-end failures are rare despite the crude, total-loss oil system and the design remains much as-was even in the latest versions which are much revised in other respects
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...
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Frankenstein

User avatar

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Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Interlaken, NY USA

Post Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

Thanks for the info, that's the kind of info I was seeking. By the By, I've decreased oil flow to big end on my BTSV's in an effort to increase pressure to the piston jets. I went to the once a rev squirt scenario again.
Glad to hear your rant on Turner, never impressed me either.
DD
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45Brit

Posts: 1399

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:29 am

Post Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:25 am

Re: Flywheel/rod suggestions for wl/k

Turner's reputation has been severely tarnished in later years. My personal view is that he did more after about 1950 than any other man to produce the final decline of the industry, although there is strong competition.

The small single cylinder Triumphs ( Cub and Terrier ) suffer from under-design and the BSA C15 has more of the same, being directly related. Having had considerable experience of what a strong-running unit the C15 can be turned into - they dominated grass-track racing for decades and are still common in period grasstrack and motocross - I'd have to feel that the later 250cc units are a quite un-necessary tragedy.

Same with the A10 and A65, if you look at what Kawasaki and subsequently SRM have done with these units.

Turner also did a great deal to foster the mutual ill-will within the merged BSA-Triumph organisation. His frequent and protracted absences in the US were greatly damaging and his last effort - the Bandit/Fury - was a disaster; the only worthwhile part was the frame, and Rob North built that
Shoot, a man could have a good weekend in Dallas with all that stuff...

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