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wet sumping

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fhsmith1

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Post Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:04 pm

wet sumping

All
I have a problem with oil leaking from the tank into the bottom of the engine when it is sitting a few days. I can pinch off the supply line and prevent it from happening. I took the V-Twin supplied pump apart and found 1 of the check ball seats to have been drilled off center. It is off center too far to get a tool in there to make a new seat. It looks like I need another pump. Can anyone recommend another supplier with better quality than V-Twin?
F
Last edited by fhsmith1 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pa

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Post Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:11 pm

Re: wet sumping

Kurt, at 45 Parts Depot / Flatland Motorcycle Parts, or OEM. Pa
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Curt!

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Post Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:05 pm

Re: wet sumping

pa
Just like you to answer all the easy questions :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Curt!
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Pa

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Post Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:19 am

Re: wet sumping

Simple minds luv simple questions. :lol:
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Curt!

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Post Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:59 am

Re: wet sumping

flhsmith
I might add that you need to voice your complaint to V-Twin. If people don't bitch about shoddy workmanship there is no incentive to make any changes. V-Twin has gotten easier to make returns in the last year. It used to be a nightmare to try to send something back. They made huge changes to their customer support lately. Hopefully they will make those kinds of changes in their Quality Control Dept. in the coming year. V-Twin/Tedd's Cycle 1-800-833-8946
Curt!
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fhsmith1

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Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:10 pm

Location: Georgia

Post Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:39 pm

Re: wet sumping

All
I drilled the passages out for 2 of the 3 ball seats and installed a small bushing being very careful to not cover up any passages. The bushings were a mild steel and were very easy to cut seats in. I used a little JB Weld around them for insurance. So far the leak down of oil from the tank to the gear case has been minimal. The cold oil pressure is about 25 PSI at about 2000 RPMs. It was a little tricky to do but so far so good.
There was a small pin in the pressure regulator seat that looked like it was there to hold the ball off the seat just a little. I did not do that seat at first. With that ball held off the seat it did not build up any oil pressure at all even when cold. I then knocked out the pin and redid the seat the same as the others. It then started to build a little pressure. Does anyone know what the purpose of it is and is it just there on the V Twin pumps?
F
Last edited by fhsmith1 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Frankenstein

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Post Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:37 am

Re: wet sumping

flsmith, interested in your fix. I have an old supply pump that went through fire and then got thoroughly rusted up. Seats are too badly pitted to salvage. Could you send along a pic of your repairs? Can't quite picture what was done in my head..
Thanks,
Dick
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JIm

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Post Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: wet sumping

fhsmith1,

If you are talking about the pin in the outer passage of the centrifugal bypass type of pump. It is there to keep the check ball from closing off the interconnection passage between the centrifugal bypass passage and the pressure bypass passage. Not to hold the check ball off it's seat. When the centrifugal bypass circuit is in operation (lower RPM range), the check ball will lift, reach the pin and move over (towards the outside of the pump) so that the passage is not blocked off and send the bypass oil back into the pressure bypass passage and into the return system. If the ball is not moved over it can close off the passage. If you did not build pressure in any RPM range with the pin in place and nothing else was wrong with the passage, I might look at the centrifugal valve in the rotor to make sure it is not stuck in the open position. Even with the centrifugal bypass passage open, the motor should build pressure. Even if the centrifugal bypass check ball seat was off center, the motor should have built pressure. Granted the pressure would be lower. If the centrifugal bypass valve in the rotor is working properly, it should close as the RPM of the motor increases thereby shutting off the centrifugal bypass circuit and sending the oil into the motor and the pressure bypass circuit.. If the valve in the rotor is not working properly and or stuck in the open position, more of your feed oil than you want is going to be sent back into the return system not into the motor at all times.

After reading what you posted about the passages, I would look closely at everything on the pump, check to see if the centrifugal valve in the rotor is installed correctly. Maybe its machined and installed wrong.

Jim
Last edited by JIm on Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Frankenstein

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Post Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:37 pm

Re: wet sumping

Hi Jim, I seem to have a flat body pump that has one of those pins on the anti siphon check valve. Never noticed one on any of my other pumps there? Any ideas?
Dick
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JIm

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Post Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:24 pm

Re: wet sumping

Hey Dick,

Just looked at two of my flat side pumps and a centrifugal bypass pump.

The early flat side pump has a pin installed just below the check ball seat of the pressure regulating / bypass passage.
The later flat side pump does not have the pin installed but the hole is drilled for the pin. The hole is unmolested so I would assume that it never had the pin installed or someone took it out and left no evidence of the removal.
The centrifugal bypass pump also has the pin.

I don't see any functional reason for the pin to be there but maybe a safety reason. The check ball seat would prevent the ball from dropping down into the inlet check valve passage so why a pin below the seat? The only thing I can think of is that it might have been put there to prevent someone from installing the wrong size check ball, read smaller, in the pressure bypass passage. If a check ball smaller than the pressure bypass passage seat was put in, It would drop down into the inlet check valve passage and be on the back side of the inlet check ball. This could possibly jamb the inlet check valve closed. If the ball jambed in tight enough, there would be no oil or very little oil pumped into the motor.

There would possibly be no physical evidence that the inlet check ball was jambed such as a serious oil leak in the gasket or anywhere else from an extremely high build up of pressure. As the oil pump tried to pump oil to the motor, the oil passage from the top of the rotor vane bore down to the check valve would fill with oil. If the check ball was jambed shut and the passage was filled the pump would not be able to push any more oil. The vanes in the oil pump would probably be pushed into the rotor and or just slide around the bore without building any more pressure. Unknown as to what that pressure might be. Even if the motor was equipped with the stock oil light or a pressure gauge, the oil light would probably go out and the pressure gauge would probably show pressure. This would be due to the location of the pressure switch port which is located before the inlet check valve. The pressure gauge would probably show an abnormally high pressure reading.

Jim
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Frankenstein

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Post Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:52 pm

Re: wet sumping

Jim,
Yeah, that makes sense. This poor pump is so rusted I'm not going to be able to get a seat unless I use flsmith's technique to add a new surface. It's only going to be an oil distribution block so that's the only surface that really matters. Now that I think about it this pump may have come off of one of my old motor basket cases I picked years ago. I got a '37 & a '38 for $20. (1974) Just cases, covers and one set of flywheels. So it might be a very early pump
Just to update, I've got about 250 miles on my Flatty this year with it's new bore and valve job. Cut down the valve guides and installed shovel guide seals. Also installed early screw type tappet covers. Oil consumption has been nil at the 250 mile point, and the only major leak left is the left crank seal. Left the slinger in instead of updating to a lip seal. She puddles a little when parked.
Now to get some miles on it this year and see if the pistons and bores hold up! At this point there don't seem to be any down side effects from the sporty pump.
Thanks for the pump info,
Dick
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JIm

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Post Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:56 pm

Re: wet sumping

Good deal Dick.

Are you using the the piston squirter's you designed a while back?

Jim
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Frankenstein

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Post Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:00 pm

Re: wet sumping

You bet, I had to notch the pistons for them and I screwed in the second set, after the pistons knocked loose the first ones. :-( Ouch! Got lucky on that one and no long term damage done. I'm slowly moving along on the chopper Flatty, motor is nearly together, same oil system, streamlined oil pump that uses stock flathead mounting screws. That's the motor the rusty pump body is for.
Dick
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fhsmith1

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Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:10 pm

Location: Georgia

Post Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:28 am

Re: wet sumping

Frankenstein
Pictures would not come out very well at all. The area is way down in the bottom of the bore for the seats. Besides it is back on the bike and running OK.
I just used a drill bit as close to the inside bore of the check valve passages I could find and bored the area of the seat about 1/2" further down. I then used a spacer with almost the same outside diamater as the drill bit used. The spacer already had a 5/16" inside diamater hole in it. I used a tool for a shovelhead/panhead to cut a seat in the spacer. The spacers were 1/2" long. I pushed them into the places where I had drilled.
I used JB Weld (thanks to whoever came up with that stuff) to make sure they stayed in place and was very careful to not get any of it in the other passages.
As far as the pin I refered to. It was in the passage for the pressure regulator. I have ridden the bike more since the first post and there seems to be no ill effects from knocking the pin out.
F
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Frankenstein

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Post Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:47 pm

Re: wet sumping

thanks for the explanation, Guess I was dense the other day. Seems pretty clear now. I'm going to give that a try on my old pump and see how it goes. Thanks,
Dick
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JIm

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Post Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:19 am

Re: wet sumping

Be interesting to see how they work out over time. I like the idea you are using, maybe they will help to keep the pistons cooler as well as lubricated.

Thinking about changing my UL to a slightly updated version of 60's early 70's styling. Back in a ridged frame, stock springer, up sweeps, 18" rear, 19" front but discs front and rear.

Then Knuckelizing the current Flatboy setup.

Later

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