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It must be time....

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knucklebolt

Posts: 295

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:51 pm

It must be time....

For my cylinder heads to gain a few CC's. Snow is on the ground, and more is on the way. Perhaps Thanksgiving, probably more likely I'll do it over Christmas break. Then I'll wait out the rest of the winter dying to know how she runs! Will post some pics.

ken.
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woody

Posts: 519

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Wa, USA

Post Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:14 pm

Re: It must be time....

Ken, sorry about your snow. Got out today for about 65 miles which gets me over my 1000. Got home, put her up on the lift, dumped all lubes and made it in the house in time to watch the Hawks. Nothing to do for next year except minor improvements and new stuff I want to make just because I can. Hope your improvements go good for you.
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knucklebolt

Posts: 295

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: It must be time....

Well that's cool we are both at about the same mileage. One of these years those Flatheads are going to ride down the road together. Yeah...I know you can make anything. Rumor has it that you even machined the bulb in your headlight. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Fired up the wood stove in the garage yesterday and got it and the work bench cleaned up and organized for my upcoming cylinder head massage. I will do that (take the heads out to 110cc) over Christmas break. Late summer I got a 4-car parking barn put up, and that really cleared out the garage for working on bikes, and even left enough room for another Bug project and a spot for the Woman to park.

Only other improvement I have planned is a new set of springs ("Progessive") for the front end, which just arrived. My ebay special front end came equipped with springs that had been cut down to lower them. I made spacers that brought it up to the height I wanted, but as you can guess the cut down springs didn't work worth a damn. Too stiff. Hardly any action. The Little Mistress is probably lighter than the bike they came off so that doesn't help either. My plan is to make spacers, if needed, (they are supposed to be stock-height springs) out of the old springs to get the action I want. Don't know about anyone else, but in my experience one wants the front end on the soft side when there is no rear suspension. Don't know if that is true with springers or not. Anyhow, since the kid stopped by today I had him help me lift the lady up on a block so I can do that first...easy job other than getting the bike off and on the block. !!! You'd think I'd get a bike-jack wouldn't you?

Okay, thanks.

ken
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knucklebolt

Posts: 295

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:10 pm

Re: It must be time....

Time to get busy on the front end. Here is the old hacked up fork spring next to one of the new ones. They are a bit longer than the old spring plus spacer. I hope these new "progressive" springs are everything they are cracked up to be...or at least somewhat superior to the hacked up stock springs.
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Last edited by knucklebolt on Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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knucklebolt

Posts: 295

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:16 pm

Re: It must be time....

New springs in, old springs on the bench. (lower pic) Added a couple of ounces of fork oil just for laughs.

I'm not sure if you can tell from the pic, but there she is back on the ground. Like a fool I didn't measure anything before hand, but I think the forks are about two inches longer, and she sits about 3/4" higher I would guess. Hopefully I feel a big difference on the road, but it might be a while. !!!! One more week until Christmas break, and I get to massage the heads.

ken.
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knucklebolt

Posts: 295

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:50 pm

Re: It must be time....

At last, time for the head massage! Hmmm...these pics are posted backwards, in reverse order. Anyhow, well Woody, it does say 90cc on it!
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The best tool for the job.
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Last edited by knucklebolt on Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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knucklebolt

Posts: 295

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:55 pm

Re: It must be time....

It was water sports all day long, took nine hours to go from 90cc to 105cc. Finished head in the pic is not quite finished. I undercut the walls around the valves, mostly on the intake side, and raised the roof above the intake valve. I also made a steeper transition from the chamber to the squish area, and a steeper transition from the roof over the intake, to the area above the exhaust valve. I didn't raise the roof at all over the exhaust valve. I also un-shrouded the spark plug...I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not, but it made sense to me at the time.
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Last edited by knucklebolt on Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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knucklebolt

Posts: 295

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:03 pm

Re: It must be time....

Okay, I shalt no longer bore ye with the enlarging of the heads.

Got 'er done yesterday. I got both heads out to 105cc's, and it took a long time to do that. As far as I can tell, the heads are both exactly the same, and I was able to get three measurements in a row that were the same (105cc) with both heads.

I stopped at 105cc because, I figured the metal is easier to take off than remove, and the engine ran great, I could just tell when lugging up a hill the compression was too high, and also by the amount I had to retard the ignition in order for it not to ping. So I don't think I was too far over the edge, and I can open them up some more if it does not seem to make much difference. I suppose I may have to do this until I get no ping at the proper, or reasonable amount of advance.

Set my timing again, but did everything right with the head off, line in the hole, etc. Timing seemed to be set (entirely by feel, just to the point to remove the ping, under all conditions) right at TDC, or even a degree or two after...wow! See what I mean about being "on", or "over" the "edge" on compression? However, like the fool that I am, when I checked to see where the timing WAS, I forgot to advance the auto-advance and started moving it around before I remembered that without doing that, timing is retarded another 15 degrees. Still, to set it back to factory specs took quite a few degrees, and I'm pretty sure it was set around TDC...or a tiny bit after.

And today we got our first real snow, as if to torture me, and not let me find out for a while if the operation was a success.

k.
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knucklebolt

Posts: 295

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:26 pm

Re: It must be time....

Status Report: We are having some above freezing temps, so yesterday I put a drop light under the tranny, fired up the wood stove in the garage, and started the Little Mistress up. Let that drop light warm the tranny for about three hours.

It is confirmed, when the temp is below a certain...temp...my kicker gears slip. At about and above 35-40 degrees or so, they don't. Never slipped all summer. Week or so ago, was going to start it, and it was slip city, and I decided not to bust my other knee. But yeah, when that tranny oil gets thick enough, it will keep those teeth from meshing.

Anyhow, took a while to kick it into life, but she ran great. After she got good and hot I had to re-adjust the idle screw, which I'm sure is why it was hard to start....aside from the oil being more like the proverbial molasses. Compression does seem to effect carb tune...no duh!

Didn't take it out on the wet, sandy and icy roads, but she did run nice in the garage. Did the final torque on the head bolts, and now she's good to go. Winter usually breaks here mid-February, and by March there will be some riding days. Oh yeah! I got the motorcycle blues BAD.

k.
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mark59

Posts: 63

Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:40 pm

Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:01 am

Re: It must be time....

Hi Ken, i have been watching this thread with interest, i did some rough calcs on my comp ratio and came up with 8:1, cylinder relieving is about 1:1 so ratio should be in the 7:1 ballpark. are your cylinders relieved? my stroke is 4.375 and bore is 3.4375, what stroke are you running? do i understand your timing being at tdc running advanced and then retarded way past tdc? if yes this would build a lot of heat at idle, hope you have good weather soon, i too am going stir crazy for a good ride in the breeze. Mark
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knucklebolt

Posts: 295

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:36 pm

Re: It must be time....

My engine is very stock, no relieving on the cylinders, which are actually correct for the year and are 74 inch cylinders. They have been sleeved, and are .060" over...so it's a 76 inch engine, kind of in between a 74 and a 80. The person I got it from did not know who did the rebuild, but thought it was one of the dealers in the Miami area...long story.

Yes, my static timing was set after TDC, only way it would start and run, and the 45 circuit breaker has 15 degrees advance to it, so with the weights/advance kicked in she was probably running very few degrees before TDC. The bike did not run badly...but for sure way over the top on compression with 90cc heads.

I set the timing up by the book initially, (before the first time I ever fired the engine) but right away had to retard it as it would kick back really hard...you really couldn't kick it through with the ignition on. Then I had to retard it quite a bit more when I started riding it, until it no longer pinged. I guess with way too much compression, an engine will run half way decent with very late timing. !! But again, it didn't run badly. But at that time I didn't make notes...just turned the circuit breaker until it no longer pinged.

Or in other words, when running I probably had some advance, but not much. Static timing was indeed set after TDC, or ATDC...which I could see or check with the head off. Without a degree wheel I didn't try and figure out what my timing actually was with the advance kicked in. But it wasn't much.

After taking the heads out to 105cc, and re-setting the timing to where it was before the first firing of the engine, again by the book, it did not kick back at all...so I'm pretty sure I've made progress. :)

Now on the heat thing, I'm sure you are correct, but it seemed to me that the engine never ran unusually hot. Of course that is without ever having actually measured it, and never riding it in city traffic on a hot day. I've never had to idle the engine for long periods of time. Also, my head pipes have never discolored...I'm not sure what to make of that...this is the first bike I've ever had where the pipes did not discolor at least a little bit. I got them from Paughco. I don't know if that is supposed to be a feature of those pipes...??

Thank you for your interest. It's not a bad study on how far one can go with compression on a stock UL.

k.
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woody

Posts: 519

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Wa, USA

Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:20 pm

Re: It must be time....

I checked my flywheels with a degree wheel and a dial indicator to find TDC and found that the timing mark on my T&O wheels is 32 degrees BTDC with the mark in the center of the timing hole. I made a ring on the sprocket side with timing marks on it and did some playing with total timing and found that 2 degrees either way made a huge difference in the way the motor ran. It really likes 32 degrees with all advance in. 30 got hot quick and had less power, and 34 pinged very easy. I have had other flatheads, both big twin and 45 and they all liked full advance set with the mark in the center of the hole.
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knucklebolt

Posts: 295

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:31 pm

Re: It must be time....

Well my final timing-tuning will be by feel, so I won't really know what, or exactly what I wind up with...other than eye-balling the wheel through the hole in the left case...which might not be so bad, as the starting point is in the middle, so I'll have some idea. But did I check it to see where it was before I pulled the heads and re-set the timing?

No.

I don't remember where my 45 ran at, but it was a stock compression engine. At any rate, I'm thinking that I lowered the compression enough so that I should be able to run pretty close to stock timing. I'm feeling good about it.

So Woody, what compression do you believe your engine is at?

k.
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woody

Posts: 519

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:01 am

Location: Wa, USA

Post Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:37 pm

Re: It must be time....

Ken,
Not sure on compression. My heads are 130cc and the cylinders are relieved. Most of what I have read says that breathing is more important to flatheads than compression so that is the route I went.
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knucklebolt

Posts: 295

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 pm

Location: Six miles East of Cheney, Wa.

Post Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:46 pm

Re: It must be time....

I agree, I just wonder what the "sweet spot" is, where you have as much compression as possible, but can still run stock timing, or very close to it. But with relieving and deck height and all that, pretty hard to know exactly what the compression is...always going to be different than what the math tells one I'm sure.

Before I did the deed on my heads, I soaked up everything I could find on the subject. The Ford Flathead guys seem to know a few things too...so I tried to remove metal in all the right places, to improve flow, mostly unshrouded around the intake and raised the roof over the intake, then mostly "blended" after that to get it to cc at 105cc.

Another thing I did, which I'm not sure was right, but what the hey, was make that "pocket" that the spark plug sits in less of a pocket..."unshrouded" the spark plug. But, we'll see, like I sez, I'm feeling good about it, and there is no doubt in my mind that the engine had too much compression, and now it has less, and should flow better too. No worries!! ??

k.

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